Trans lesbian?

[Timeforatincture]

My first ever post on this board. Long time reader, and have found it highly educational. Thank you everyone.

There is a pullout in today's Guardian about influential lesbians. Cameos and longer pieces. One of the longer pieces is an interview with a "trans lesbian."

AIBUin thinking that's a bit odd?

You don't actually allow people to be homosexual if you insist that they could be attracted to a male of feminine gender

Can you get more homophobic than saying homosexuality doesn't exist?

@HappyGoLuckyLuLu

There are no hard and fast rules to who can and can't be attracted to who. There is biology/science, which I agree is indisputable.

But the polarisation & inability to debate in a civilised manner is a huge problem - until these discussions can be had without overreaction we will never manage to move forwards

The overreaction on this thread has been from the posters spouting that TW can be lesbians.

There's been no answers to any questions, reasonable questions, just defensive responses with name calling and discrimination thrown in for good measure.

Debate requires logic, facts. Not 'be kind and play nice to all the menz'

That's not debate, it's misogyny.

I only hope that the world is a kinder place in the future for everyone. Clearly got a long way to go

Yes wouldn't it be great if there was a world where same sex attracted women are allowed to have a word to describe themselves and no member of the opposite sex accuses them of bigotry because they won't consider them as a partner? Wouldn't that be wonderful?

@Shedbuilder what have I said that's disrespectful to lesbians??? Not a thing.

I've acknowledged no one has any right to tell a lesbian that they should date trans women, I've also said it's disgusting that aggressive trans women would use their position to attack gay women.

I have no further interest in this feed as I feel no one is here to educate anyone, they're just here for an argument. Life's tough enough with that kind of toxicity if you can opt out of it.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

@Trevsadick

I only hope that the world is a kinder place in the future for everyone

Even to lesbians? Yeah, me too.

To everyone 😘

@MrsNewms85 but do you think transwomen can be lesbians.

If so, that's offensive and factually, incorrect.

To everyone

But to lesbians as well.

Because telling lesbians, that it doesn't mean same sex attracted, isn't kind.

But also your priority is being kind to transwomen, at the expense of lesbians.

So you don't want the world to be kinder to everyone.

I've just read this from another thread. Very relevant to this thread:

janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

Prequel: A long time ago in a lesbian bar that no longer exists

Lesbians: We don’t have to treat you as women for sexual purposes, do we?

Many transsexual women: No, that’s cool

Nascent trans activists: Well, actually, if you don’t want to fuck us then it invalidates our womanhood and that is misgendering and it’s a human rights abuse and you should want to fuck us.

Lesbians: It’s a human rights abuse if we don’t want to fuck you? What the fuck?

Nascent trans activists: Yes, you should want to fuck us.

Lesbians: Even if you still have dicks?

Nascent trans activists: Even if we still have dicks.

Lesbians: Um yeah, sorry, we don’t do dicks. We’re LESBIANS.

Nascent trans activists: You are vagina fetishists with unconscious bias and are gatekeeping your vaginas. We are women and our dicks are women’s dicks. If you don’t want to fuck us, you’re bigots.

Lesbians: We’re not bigots, it’s just you’re male, and we fuck female people.

Nascent trans activists: LITERAL VIOLENCE. WE ARE WOMEN. YOU SHOULD WANT TO FUCK US.

Lesbians: Um yeah, we’re not really feeling that right now to be honest.

Nascent trans activists: TERF TERF TERF TERF TERF.

Lesbians: HEY PEOPLE! These people are pressuring our sexual boundaries because they say they’re women but the way they’re pressuring us doesn’t make us feel like they’re women…in fact, it makes us feel like they’re men and we don’t fuck men. We’re lesbians, we don’t fuck men. That’s the reason we did all the marching, so that was okay right? RIGHT????

(Nascent trans activists: TERF TERF TERF TERF TERF)

Lesbians: HEY PEOPLE!!! Could we get some fucking help here?

Rest of the LGB community and world: Did someone say something?

Perhaps one of the transwomen are lesbian believers will read this and the penny will finally drop.

This is the most bizarre part of this discussion to me. There is a very specific definition for lesbian. It is not hate and is not a lack of civil discussion to say this, it is just a fact.

You may not like the facts but it doesn't make them any less true. Bleating 'be kind' is simply manipulation.

@sunavendi and @MrsNewms85 thank you both for trying, I’m sorry that most of what has been directed at you on this thread has been so thoroughly depressing and infuriating. Just reading it has made me by turns angry, incredulous and deeply sad.

[quote Helen8220]**@sunavendi* and @MrsNewms85* thank you both for trying, I’m sorry that most of what has been directed at you on this thread has been so thoroughly depressing and infuriating. Just reading it has made me by turns angry, incredulous and deeply sad.[/quote]
😘

Oh, and also @suggestionsplease1

[quote Helen8220]**@sunavendi* and @MrsNewms85* thank you both for trying, I’m sorry that most of what has been directed at you on this thread has been so thoroughly depressing and infuriating. Just reading it has made me by turns angry, incredulous and deeply sad.[/quote]
Seconding this.

I’m sorry that most of what has been directed at you on this thread has been so thoroughly depressing and infuriating. Just reading it has made me by turns angry, incredulous and deeply sad.

Not sure why you are sad Helen but the homophobia expressed towards lesbians has indeed been sickening.

@snekkes thanks xx

[quote Helen8220]**@sunavendi* and @MrsNewms85* thank you both for trying, I’m sorry that most of what has been directed at you on this thread has been so thoroughly depressing and infuriating. Just reading it has made me by turns angry, incredulous and deeply sad.[/quote]
What has made you angry, incredulous and sad? That lesbians are same-sex attracted females, as identified and protected in law? That the word can't be stretched to include men who identify as women? Because women and lesbians are standing up for the right of women to keep their boundaries?

I ask you the question I've asked earlier: why do you think that a white person identifying as black and expecting to be accepted as such is a terrible, insulting thing to black people, yet you don't think it's a terrible, insulting thing to expect lesbians to accept a man as one of them?

If it's not lesbophobia, then what is it that makes you think that's okay?

Yeah, big hugs to the posters bravely speaking up to tell the lesbians they don't have to sleep with males, but could they just at least stop mentioning that lesbians are same sex oriented because actually, people are just attracted to people, physical sexed bodies are just irrelevant. Shh, lesbians. It's Pride month. No one needs to know you only do women. It's not very thoughtful of you.

Just remembered why I don't post here any more. I've already wasted enough of my life on the types who tell me to shhh about lesbian sexual orientation, because it's not polite, or nice, or appropriate, or because it can be adjusted to accept some males. To those of you who quailed when it was pointed out that you're being homophobic, sad times, I'm sure. But you're identical to every single homophobe I've ever talked to so, I guess you've got to reconcile yourself to that.

Ciao, wims that I respect. Baton handed on from me, of course, but deeply grateful for those of you who took it up. Courage and solidarity.

Why would the legal and protected definition of the word lesbian make someone weepy?

Or is the fact that some people don't want to fuck biological men, that is making people sad?

Or the lesbians who won't agree to sleep with biological men, are ostracised? And call bigots and transphobes?

Or that people are trying to tell lesbians, same sex attraction isn't actually real?

@334bu quite a lot made me angry and sad, but I found particularly upsetting the repeated insistence that a trans man who identifies as heterosexual (because they are attracted only to women) is a lesbian, or that a lesbian who is attracted to trans women as well as other women must actually be bisexual. I would have hoped we were beyond trying to override other people’s self-identified sexualities and claim to know better than they know themselves.

Not to mention the repeated statements that trans women are actually men.

Legal definitions exist for gay people because they have been discriminated against and persecuted for most of human history. Other peoples rights, definitions and boundaries are not yours to give away.

@FloralBunting your post was very sad and disillusioned in places I’m so glad you met your partner though and hope you are very happy now. I feel really disheartened to see lesbians taking a kicking again, I thought that being in a female homosexual relationship meant same sex attracted? I thought that it was same sex relationships that were protected? So how can a biological male be a lesbian? If lesbians want to be in a relationship with a trans woman then fine, I just thought this would come under the bisexual heading? if lesbians want to have relationships solely with biological women that’s absolutely fine too and that would be a lesbian relationship. Nobody should be coherced into any kind of physical relationship as surely that’s assault?

I was sickened by people stating that members of the male sex class could be lesbians, thus denying lesbians' same sex orientation.

I'm baffled that some things posted here were actually typed presumably with a straight face and not as some sort of postmodern joke

Not to mention the repeated statement that transwomen are actually men

But they are. And a transman is a woman. Humans can't change sex.

Why is reality so difficult for you to accept?