Pronouns on BBC?

[thenonsensepotter]

Watching Glow Up on iplayer and every time they show a contestants name on the screen their pronoun is included in brackets. I don't watch a lot of current TV, is this a proper "thing" now or just this one program?

[Warmduscher]

The whole reason people use the term cisgendered is because people get so upset calling trans women as women. If people didn't make it an issue then we can all just be called women.

It’s not that people get upset calling transwomen women. It’s that it isn’t true.

[ASugarr]

@Warmduscher

The whole reason people use the term cisgendered is because people get so upset calling trans women as women. If people didn't make it an issue then we can all just be called women.

It’s not that people get upset calling transwomen women. It’s that it isn’t true.

Woman is a gender term so actually there is nothing wrong with it.

[Stormwhale]

Ah, I fear I have reached a brick wall with you Asugarr. I am not excluding trans women from the club, but there is nothing wrong with them being called what they are. They are a trans woman.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

@Mewmin the "explanation" of what gender identity is, as different to gender expression or biological sex as described by Asugarr is a statement of belief. The belief that there is some indescribable feeling that someone has that tells them whether they are male/female/non-binary which is totally separate and unrelated to their physical body or how they express themselves. It cannot be defined or explained because it is different for everyone and any attempt to pin it down is transphobic.

[MissLucyEyelesbarrow]

I'd suggest speaking to the transgender community

It's got fuck-all to do with trans people. Preferred pronouns is all about privileged middle class heterosexual non-trans people trying to appropriate queer culture.

[IamAporcupine]

@Warmduscher

Probably more to do with the audience and others not misgendering. And it's become quite a common thing to do so it doesn't surprise me. Kinda like this addition. Makes me actually want a TV license

The audience is sitting in their homes, surely? How will anyone know if they “misgender” someone?

This is a bit like "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

[Quaagars]

Because trans women are women

Eesh good luck with that statement on here

[ASugarr]

Seems as if I'm talking to a brick wall here. No offense to you all but please do some research on these things before dismissing them. It's clear this is too complex to explain to you all over a forum. Just let people do what they want and leave them be. Also trans women are women and trans men are men 🤍

[Stormwhale]

Following on from my point, if transwomen just stick to being called what they are... transwomen... then there is no need to change the label for billions of women who are fine with just being women!!!

[ErrolTheDragon]

Woman is a gender term so actually there is nothing wrong with it.

Woman means, and has always meant 'adult human female.' Female denotes sex. It's a sex term.

[Mewmin]

Your gender is just if you are a man, woman or non binary. Gender expression is if you are stereotypically feminine or Masculine. You don't have to be masculine to be a man and vice versa

Are you using gender here as another word for sex? Isn't sex whether you are a man or a woman (defined by chromosomes) and gender how you identify (which I thought meant whether you feel male or female but now I'm just confused).

So you could be a transman with XX chromosomes but express your (male) gender in a feminine way?

[Quaagars]

I am not excluding trans women from the club, but there is nothing wrong with them being called what they are. They are a trans woman.

OK, but the thread is about pronouns so what pronouns would you use then?

[Stormwhale]

Asugarr if you can't back up your points it's OK to say that. We won't judge.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Also trans women are women and trans men are men

You can carry on saying that till you're blue in the face, but it won't make it objectively true.

[Quaagars]

Asugarr has been saying their views clearly though? What exactly are you wanting to be backed up?

[Stormwhale]

Quaagars

She/her - because I have no desire to upset someone, but I also don't see the need for the majority to declare pronouns just incase someone occasionally gets it wrong! It's daft!

[Warmduscher]

@ASugarr

Seems as if I'm talking to a brick wall here. No offense to you all but please do some research on these things before dismissing them. It's clear this is too complex to explain to you all over a forum. Just let people do what they want and leave them be. Also trans women are women and trans men are men 🤍

I’ve done my research.

I’m still dismissing announcing your pronouns as unnecessary ego-stroking.

[Stormwhale]

@Quaagars

Asugarr has been saying their views clearly though? What exactly are you wanting to be backed up?

Why it is a problem for trans women to be called transwomen, leaving natal women to keep their original label instead of becoming cis and why its a problem for someone to occasionally misgender someone accidentally meaning the entirety of society needs to change their behaviour and start declaring pronouns!

[Mewmin]

Mewminthe "explanation" of what gender identity is, as different to gender expression or biological sex as described by Asugarr is a statement of belief. The belief that there is some indescribable feeling that someone has that tells them whether they are male/female/non-binary which is totally separate and unrelated to their physical body or how they express themselves. It cannot be defined or explained because it is different for everyone and any attempt to pin it down is transphobic.

So if gender is a "feeling" of being male/female how is it nothing to do with masculinity/femininity? How can you feel male but it have nothing to do with masculinity? What does male mean then (assuming you don't think it means having XY chromosomes)?

[ASugarr]

@Stormwhale

Asugarr if you can't back up your points it's OK to say that. We won't judge.

I literally teach this as a job. It isn't that hard to understand. If you look at the NHS language guidelines it states that Woman and Man are gender terms. Male and Female are sex terms. The term cisgender wouldn't have to exist if people accepted trans women as women. So it is now a term people use. Preferred pronouns are used everywhere. They are used to help clarify how someone wishes to be addressed. If you don't like it, then fine. But people do and will continue to use it. And lastly, you don't have to be feminine to be a cis or trans woman. And you don't have to be masculine to be a cis or trans man. That's probably the best way to explain it. Plain and simple. Have a good night 🤍

[Enough4me]

Women are women, men are men, transwomen are transwomen, transmen are transmen.

Women and men are not cis - they did not choose to be their gender, they are their gender.

I imagine having a conversation with my DCs to explain this... yes I know you're a boy and you're a girl, but you need to add cis in front now and state this all the time in case you offend someone who thinks they aren't a boy or girl as a minority may be offended by you being what you are so you have to change to appease them all your life...

[IamAporcupine]

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

I'd suggest speaking to the transgender community

It's got fuck-all to do with trans people. Preferred pronouns is all about privileged middle class heterosexual non-trans people trying to appropriate queer culture.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow - would you mind to elaborate on this? I am truly interested.

[GiveMeTulipsfromAmsterdam]

I get really confused 😕

So women are now cis and trans women are now women... why?

[AssassinatedBeauty]

@Mewmin there's no point trying to ask sensible questions about this concept of gender identity. It is deliberately designed to defy description and be inscrutable. It's a belief, not a rational conclusion based in objective reality.

[Mewmin]

Saying that Ruth is a man's name is not a good way to try to back up an argument or expect people to have a logical discussion with you. Saying something doesn't make it true.