Pronouns on BBC?

[thenonsensepotter]

Watching Glow Up on iplayer and every time they show a contestants name on the screen their pronoun is included in brackets. I don't watch a lot of current TV, is this a proper "thing" now or just this one program?

[CthulhuChristmas]

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

I'd suggest speaking to the transgender community

It's got fuck-all to do with trans people. Preferred pronouns is all about privileged middle class heterosexual non-trans people trying to appropriate queer culture.

This is interesting and I hadn't thought about it that way.

If a trans person is making an effort to resemble someone of the opposite sex, we can tell what pronouns they would like others to use, whether or not we choose to use them. They probably don't want constant attention drawn to their trans status.

A young woman claiming to be 'hehim' while obviously performing femininity, though? The announcement is important. Otherwise the person appears just like every other boring cishet, and that's the worst thing to be in certain circles.

(To clarify, the argument is not that all men must look masculine and all women must look feminine. The argument is about using common sense, and distinguishing genuine trans people trying to alleviate their dysphoria from obvious attention-seekers.)

[GCITC]

If woman is now a gender term most women aren't women.

[LostToucan]

The term cisgender wouldn't have to exist if people accepted trans women as women.

The term cisgender wouldn’t have to exist if “people” accepted that trans women are biologically male.

I am a woman, adult human female. I am not a subset of woman, adult human female.

[Quaagars]

She/her - because I have no desire to upset someone, but I also don't see the need for the majority to declare pronouns just incase someone occasionally gets it wrong! It's daft!

OK, I can see that, I have no desire to state mine either as don't have the need to (but if in an environment I was asked to would probably internally roll eyes and state them whilst simultaneously thinking I didn't need to) but can see why others do state theirs if they're trans, and maybe makes it more normalised for them if a lot of people does it.

[AfternoonToffee]

@Quaagars

I am not excluding trans women from the club, but there is nothing wrong with them being called what they are. They are a trans woman.

OK, but the thread is about pronouns so what pronouns would you use then?

If I was in a situation where I was talking about someone that was personally known - say a colleague I would use She, Chris Red (as previously mentioned) off the tele with DH I would use the pronouns that fitted to the appearance of Chris.*

*Chris is purely fictional, I have no idea of gender identity.

[GiveMeTulipsfromAmsterdam]

@Enough4me

Women are women, men are men, transwomen are transwomen, transmen are transmen.

Women and men are not cis - they did not choose to be their gender, they are their gender.

I imagine having a conversation with my DCs to explain this... yes I know you're a boy and you're a girl, but you need to add cis in front now and state this all the time in case you offend someone who thinks they aren't a boy or girl as a minority may be offended by you being what you are so you have to change to appease them all your life...

Thus is what I don't get. I'm a woman born one and always been one
Now I'm supposed to be a cis so a trans woman born a man can be called a woman... what the heck 😳 for what reason?

[Quaagars]

@Mewmin

Saying that Ruth is a man's name is not a good way to try to back up an argument or expect people to have a logical discussion with you. Saying something doesn't make it true.

Has anyone said Ruth is a man's name? Just that names can be neutral and names don't really mean as much as they did in the past "girls or boys" wise

[WhatsGoin]

Clearly males can’t handle being called trans women as it draws attention to them not actually being women. By calling real women cis they can then use the argument that trans and cis is merely a descriptive term for the type of women. Of course nobody really believes they are women, it was nicety that’s been taken advantage of. Women are waking up.

[Scepticaltank]

The cat had the best idea

[Mewmin]

Yes someone upthread tried to dismiss my argument by saying that Ruth is a man's name.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Nobody sensible looks up the NHS as an authority on the meaning of words. Dictionaries, etymologies etc are much more sensible reference sources.
From which, btw, you can also learn that 'gender' applied to people really did mean just sex until quite recently when it got 'social' in addition to biological connotations.

The "male-or-female sex" sense is attested in English from early 15c. As sexex*^ (n.) took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be the usual English word for "sex of a human being," in which use it was at first regarded as colloquial or humorous. Later often in feminist writing with reference to social attributes as much as biological qualities; this sense first attested 1963.

www.etymonline.com/word/gender

[JackieLavertysWeirdVoice]

Makes me actually want a TV license

Why haven't you got a TV licence?

[Mewmin]

@Mewminthere's no point trying to ask sensible questions about this concept of gender identity. It is deliberately designed to defy description and be inscrutable. It's a belief, not a rational conclusion based in objective reality.

This is what I find so frustrating. I have not been disrespectful in any way and am genuinely trying to understand someone else's point of view but it seems that when the questions become too hard to answer the response is "do some research" or "speak to transgender people" while refusing to answer the question or explain the logic to their argument.

It doesn't help the transgender cause.

[Warmduscher]

I literally teach this as a job. It isn't that hard to understand. If you look at the NHS language guidelines it states that Woman and Man are gender terms. Male and Female are sex terms. The term cisgender wouldn't have to exist if people accepted trans women as women.

You’ve posted on other threads that NHS guidelines say that the words “man” and “women” are gender terms and posted screenshots to try to prove this. On those threads you were told your “evidence” showed nothing of the sort.

Please stop posting these falsehoods. It’s ok to hold certain beliefs; there’s probably not a single person on here who would say that’s not ok. But please stop presenting your personal beliefs as facts. It’s dishonest.

[Waitwhat23]

@asugarr are you yet again referencing this manual service-manual.nhs.uk/content/inclusive-language when you refer to 'NHS language guidelines' which says nothing of the sort? I have lost count of the amount of times I have seen you corrected on this. And as many, many, many posters have pointed out to you, the guidelines are just that and are meant to be tailored to best suit their audience.

[EscapeDragon]

@mum2jakie

I'm not cisgender, I'm a woman. And I resent a publicly funded service trying to normalise this kind of shit.

Hear hear.

[Mewmin]

If you look at the NHS language guidelines it states that Woman and Man are gender terms. Male and Female are sex terms.

If that were true it would mean that you can have a male woman and a female man.

[ASugarr]

@Mewmin

If you look at the NHS language guidelines it states that Woman and Man are gender terms. Male and Female are sex terms.

If that were true it would mean that you can have a male woman and a female man.

Congrats! Exactly 🤍

[blacksax]

@mum2jakie

I'm not cisgender, I'm a woman. And I resent a publicly funded service trying to normalise this kind of shit.

^ What she said.

[showmethegin]

The reason I and many many other women find 'cis' offensive is because the most common definition of that is having a gender identity the same as the sex you were assigned at birth.

1. Sex is not assigned at birth it is observed at birth.
2. I do not have a gender identity as gender identity is a collection of outdated, degrading, regressive and damaging stereotypes that feminists have been fighting to demolish for decades. It appears we are now expected to adhere to these stereotypes and if we don't we are what? Non-binary?
3. Feminists have also been fighting to break down these stereotypes especially in relation to children and have been doing 'gender neutral' parenting as it is now called for years; doing away with pink and blue and girl toys and boy toys BECAUSE as women we see how these stereotypes inflict real harm, especially on girls. It doesn't make any of those children anything other than male or female and it damages children to be dishonest about these differences in biology.

[Voice0fReason]

I don't agree with compelled speech so I will never tell anyone what pronouns to use for me.

[Enough4me]

Imagine the dull future conversations when meeting someone new, "hi I'm X I am a female woman, ciswoman pronouns she/her nice to meet you".

I bet men will just say "Hi I'm X" and bypass all this nonsense.

[Scepticaltank]

@Mewmin

If you look at the NHS language guidelines it states that Woman and Man are gender terms. Male and Female are sex terms.

If that were true it would mean that you can have a male woman and a female man.

Its even more complicated than that.

There are male males and female males and female females and male females too.

[IamAporcupine]

@Quaagars

She/her - because I have no desire to upset someone, but I also don't see the need for the majority to declare pronouns just incase someone occasionally gets it wrong! It's daft!

OK, I can see that, I have no desire to state mine either as don't have the need to (but if in an environment I was asked to would probably internally roll eyes and state them whilst simultaneously thinking I didn't need to) but can see why others do state theirs if they're trans, and maybe makes it more normalised for them if a lot of people does it.

As another PP said, this argument does not make sense - if a trans man/woman wants to 'pass' they will likely change their name and dress in more sterotypical clothes for their preferred sex. Almost everyone will likely notice this and go along with it, using the 'correct' pronouns without the trans man/woman having to state them in their signature or whatever.

[Mewmin]

So a woman is a female woman, a transwoman is a male woman, a man is a male man and a transman is a female man?