Pronouns on BBC?

[thenonsensepotter]

Watching Glow Up on iplayer and every time they show a contestants name on the screen their pronoun is included in brackets. I don't watch a lot of current TV, is this a proper "thing" now or just this one program?

[Mewmin]

It feels rather like weighing up various Christian denominations to work out which church would be the best fit for me if attendance on Sundays was compulsory.

Not really. The different Christian denominations all share the same core beliefs. It's more atheists arguing against Jehovahs Witnesses.

[PotholeHellhole]

It feels rather like weighing up various Christian denominations to work out which church would be the best fit for me if attendance on Sundays was compulsory.

[Datun]

Wel, personally I'm not agender either. Calling myself agender suggests I accept the concept of gender politics. I don't.

[PotholeHellhole]

The proper term for my gender identity is agender, not cis.

So cis is not going to work. Referring to me as a "cis woman" would be offensive.

[R0wantrees]

Apologies, should read:
Girls are female human beings who are children and Men are male human beings who are adults.

[R0wantrees]

Some people, on the other hand, believe that only the words 'female' and 'male' are sex terms and that the words 'woman' and 'man' are purely gender terms. **
This means they believe that a woman can have a penis or a vagina, have cervical or prostate cancer, be male or female. Ditto for men.
These people believe Gender - how you feel about yourself and identify - is more important than biological Sex.

Importantly it removes the ability to recognise the differences by both sex and age.

Girls are female human beings who are female and Men are male human beings who are adults.

[ifIwerenotanandroid]

[quote Chrysanthemum5]@WhereYouLeftIt yes I watched All that glitters and noticed next week is about drag queens. Do they ever ask the female contestants how they feel about this? [/quote]
I noticed that - & the art photography programme which had a drag queen for a model, & Grayson Perry picking a painting of a drag queen...

It's just a fashion. I used be into art photography & there were always fashions in terms of subject or technique. At one time it was all straightforward photo-essays of North Korea; then there were endless spookily-coloured shots of European circus performers - & on & on.

This too will pass.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

The push, from what I can see, is to decouple the word woman from anything connected to their biology. So that people without that biology, can claim the name. Hence when biology disrupts the plan, the name is to be cervix haver, menstruator, etc, anything that doesn't actually say woman.

YY Datun

[WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo]

AlwaysTawnyOwl

ASugarr also claimed on a previous thread to work alongside clinicians administering questionnaires that diagnosed a child as trans. The questions, even the gist of them, were also apparently confidential information that 'couldn't be given out'. Does the quesionnaire exist? I don't think so.

Yes I know. It just shows that anyone can claim anything online.

ASugarr

Cool. I've said young people this entire time.

Depends what you mean by young people. I take it to mean children and teens. Possibly even early 20s.
I used to work in a care home for the elderly. The residents quite often referred to the carers as young people. We ranged from 19- early 60s. But compared to the residents who were late 80s- 104 we were young.

[Datun]

Well I'm guessing the name for women is now cis woman.

Which, whatever you cut it up, is offensive. Firstly I don't identify with the gender imposed on me as a woman. With gender meaning cultural roles and expectations.

Secondly in terms of it meaning not trans, I am not about to be identified in reference to something I'm not, and also not in reference to a male individual.

The push, from what I can see, is to decouple the word woman from anything connected to their biology. So that people without that biology, can claim the name. Hence when biology disrupts the plan, the name is to be cervix haver, menstruator, etc, anything that doesn't actually say woman.

And of course, given that none of this is to benefit women, quite the opposite, you never see these words being applied to men.

[Warmduscher]

Not sure where that spare (though came from!

[PotholeHellhole]

Given all that, If 'woman' is a gender-term now, then what is the replacement sex term for adult female human beings, then?

The wordfemaleandmaleare most commonly used as adjectives, and using them as nouns for human beings
A) makes you sound like Quark (the Ferengi have a massively misogynistic culture), and,
B) is unclear. You could be talking about guinea pigs.

So what are our new words going to be?

I've had a suggestion of She-Ras and He-Men to fill the linguistic gap.

[Warmduscher]

That’s an interesting point, Datun.

So when someone says TWAW, presumably they are implying (though that women are not adult human females. As the two are mutually exclusive.

Which is pretty offensive, if you ask me.

[ANewCreation]

This is how we'd instinctively teach a small child pronouns.

"You can't see the bin? OK. See the woman over there - she's wearing a blue coat? Well next to her there's a man with his dog. Yeah? He's sitting by a person with their back turned. Well next to them is the bin. Off you go!"

We all internalise this stuff.
Woman, girl, female =she, her
Man, boy, male=he, him
Not sure, generic, mixed = they, them

Most people believe, and currently this is the UK law position, that a woman is a human female of any age ie including girls and a man is a human male of any age ie including boys. So in UK law, Woman and Man are the names of the Sex classes.

Approximately 5000+ people in the UK have got a Gender Recognition Certificate which gives them a new birth certificate with a change to the original sex marker as observed at birth. They have swapped legal Sex classes. Holders of a GRC still remain biologically male or female so, in recognition of that fact, there are exemptions in both the GRA and Equality Act 2010 with regard to Single sex spaces, inheritance etc.

Some people, on the other hand, believe that only the words 'female' and 'male' are sex terms and that the words 'woman' and 'man' are purely gender terms. **
This means they believe that a woman can have a penis or a vagina, have cervical or prostate cancer, be male or female. Ditto for men.
These people believe Gender - how you feel about yourself and identify - is more important than biological Sex.

In this world view, you get to choose your own pronouns and they don't have to 'agree' with either your biological sex or even how you present - your gender expression.

One consequence of this is that the internalised system we all learned as small children of 'assigning' pronouns based on sex class (and which we generally manage to do with almost 100% accuracy by the time we are adults) is being linguistically dismantled.

Yet we still retain all the myriad instinctive ways we have accumulated over the years to decide what pronouns we assign to an unknown person (some of which are biological sex based: gait, build, face shape, pelvis shape, Adam's apple, hair pattern, voice etc, and some of which are more gendered: name, clothing, socialisation etc).

There is, therefore, very real cognitive dissonance when we are asked to use gender based pronouns untethered from biology, when our model since childhood has been sex based pronouns. Hence the move to get everyone to share their pronouns as if they were all up for grabs. Did cat girl really need to tell us she was she/her?

Unfortunately, the unstable sense of self at the heart of so much of the gender identity movement - though entirely developmentally normal in young people - is made even more vulnerable by handing over identity control (via the means of pronouns) to external people. Your identity is only 'valid' as long as no one misgenders you. Hence misgendering being 'literal violence' as it is an assault on your very sense of self.

**We are also seeing evidence of a more extreme belief that even 'male' and 'female' are also gender not sex terms. In the WESC yesterday there was reference to trans female - meaning?
kareningalasmith.com/2021/04/21/counting-dead-trans-people/

All of which leaves the adult human female kind of woman in a terrible position because we have had the language to describe our legal status and sex class co-opted without consultation or consent.

[R0wantrees]

It still shocks me that in this day and age people can say that transwomen are women, are actually women, when the word woman already has a meaning.

Whilst also usually refusing to define who the people are who are 'transwomen'.

[Datun]

However much some my wish to deny it, words such as woman and lesbian have specific meaning.

Indeed.

It still shocks me that in this day and age people can say that transwomen are women, are actually women, when the word woman already has a meaning.

Women can't mean adult human female and adult human male at the same time.

And there is absolutely no description of what it means as a 'gender identity'. Probably because it isn't one. The word woman is not feeling.

[MondayYogurt]

Is Glow Up ageist? There's no one over 30. 🧐

[R0wantrees]

Woman and man are defined in UK Equality Act 2010 by sex.
Lesbian, gay and bisexual are likewise defined in UK Equality Act by sex.

Sex and sexual orientation are both protected characteristics in this Act of parliament.

However much some my wish to deny it, words such as woman and lesbian have specific meaning.

[persistentwoman]

Brownteddybear
You can report your deleted post to MNHQ and they'll clarify what your error was. There's a range of language allowed elsewhere on the site that gets deleted on here - and a number of people watching every post and quick to report.

[Helleofabore]

Absinthe

It makes not the tiniest difference to material reality whether they identify as transgender.

The point is, I think, it all hinges on being able to accept 'material reality' or not. That seems to be the point of contention right there.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Yes, R0.

Having a word for "doesn't have gender dysphoria" isn't necessary, and I don't think of MTF trans people as having anything in common with women that other males do not.

But yes, for me to think "cisgender" was simply a neutral descriptor of a lack of trans status, a "trans woman" would need to be an FTM trans person, not an MTF one.

[R0wantrees]

The relatively small number (approx 6000) of women and men who have obtained a GRC (Gender recognition certificate) have the right to be treated in most, but not all circumstances, as if they are the opposite sex. This is known as a 'legal fiction'.