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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Genital Inspections

999 replies

ASugarr · 18/04/2021 05:24

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.
t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

OP posts:
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LemonSwan · 18/04/2021 12:09

High school in US is 14-18. Collegiate 18+

These are hardly children. They are late teens/ early adults and these teams are not some PE group. They are semi-professional teams. US school sports are a very serious business.

Its asking for doctors proof of birth sex. This is all much to do about nothing as there is no genital examining unless you are trying to overturn your birth sex as some kind of recording error.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 18/04/2021 12:09

It depends actually on their transition and the level of testosterone they previously had.

You just said the above. Earlier you said this:

"Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period."

So not 'period' after all. You now say "it depends."

Erkrie · 18/04/2021 12:09

It depends actually on their transition and the level of testosterone they previously had

Seems like it's not dependent on that at all according to your op. It's about their biological sex. Biological males won't be able to play in women's sport no matter how they identify. After all, gender identity is not biological sex is it, so pointless its to conflate the two ☺️

Defaultname · 18/04/2021 12:10

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

A birth certificate should suffice if needs be.

It's the OP and sensationalised news stories that are claiming inspections of genital would be necessary. It seems that a doctor's note or cheek swab would be sufficient.

And - oddly enough, depending on the country that you're in, the sex on a birth certificate can be legally changed.

Wasn't there a woman who was born with a clitoris in her throat? This would seem to justify the original poster and the Democratic politician they quoted in saying that children would be forced to undergo humiliating...no, wait...that was a film. A fantasy.

Congratulations to the dozens who've kept this thread rolling in the face of possibly-intentional obtuseness.

I've been waiting for the OP to suggest that babies should be born wearing nappies so that no-one can observe their genitals (and of course. 'assign their sex'. Rubbish).

Helleofabore · 18/04/2021 12:10

I see that we are at the ‘some girls beat some boys’ stage.

I think if you follow the science, even those boys who lost have some advantages over the girls they are competing against. Why should a less athletically able male still take the place of a female who does not have that advantage?

The entire point of sport is to compete like with like (unless it is mixed in every way). Why do you keep prioritizing males over females?

The studies already show by primary there is noticeable advantages.

Girls do not deserve to lose out to males like this.

You seem absolutely fine telling girls to give up their own aspirations for someone who has biological advantages who can compete in their own sex category. Girls do not have that option.

Stop limiting girls and women’s options by telling them to budge over for males!!

CirclesWithinCircles · 18/04/2021 12:11

Theres something very strange. A few years ago, the trans male to female runner Lauren Jeska was convicted of attempted murder and the assault of 3 members of the English Athletics Association with knives at their offices for investigating whether she had supplied blood tests showing that she was continuing to take hormone suppressing drugs when winning her English Fell Running championship medals. One of her victims, a former professional rugby player, suffered life changing injuries and nearly died. 2 other staff members who came to his help were also injured.

Lauren was previously a competitive male junior runner called Michael Jameson in local athletics leagues,

It maybe didn't attract as much publicity as it did at the time, but the conviction was well reported in all the mainstream newspapers and is well known in athletics circles in the UK. Lauren was jailed for 18 years, her crime recorded in the female crime statistics and is currently serving her sentence at Foston Hall Prison, a women's prison, along with, I believe, the notorious Clare Darbyshire.

Considering the importance of the case to womens' athletics in Britain, it attracted remarkably little publicity.

Online are the amended results for the English Fell Running Championships for 2010, 2011 and 2012 where Lauren's results are scored out and replaced with the winners.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Fell_Running_Championships

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Jeska

Lets also not forget that the Rio Olympics 800m results would now have 3 completely different medallists if the current IAAF rules on testosterone were applied.

Nellodee · 18/04/2021 12:11

I take it back, I’m looking for issues where there are none. I don’t think this is going to be used to nobble a team out of spite, I think it’s something that would be proceeded over the course of a season.

It could still be stressful for girls involved, but I don’t think it sounds like something people would enter into lightly.

The way you’ve described it, ASugar, as a formal process of a school lodging a complaint, rather than an on the spot objection by an individual has actually reassured me and put my concerns to rest.

Congratulations, you’ve actually managed to persuade someone if something, even if it was actually the opposite direction to your intention.

ASugarr · 18/04/2021 12:11

@youvegottenminuteslynn

It depends actually on their transition and the level of testosterone they previously had.

You just said the above. Earlier you said this:

"Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period."

So not 'period' after all. You now say "it depends."

In my personality opinion I still stand by my statement. I know it may seem more complicated for others. When I said "it depends" I mean that in today's society it depends. But in future I want it to reflect my statement more.
OP posts:
IbrahimaRedTwo · 18/04/2021 12:11

Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period

You could not be more wrong, and its not for you to decide.

lonel · 18/04/2021 12:13

You seem absolutely fine telling girls to give up their own aspirations for someone who has biological advantages who can compete in their own sex category. Girls do not have that option.
Exactly. Whether you realise it or not, this notion is fundamentally sexist.

RabbitOfCaerbannog · 18/04/2021 12:13

So then trans women taking estrogen should be allowed in women's sports by that logic.

I'm going to credit you with having a better understanding of the situation than this. Studies have shown that trans women retain advantages after taking oestrogen. Even the Guardian reported that one! https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Maduixa · 18/04/2021 12:14

ASugarr: It suggests it would be an option which isn't acceptable

How does this bill introduce an option that wasn't already available? Please refer to the actual text of the bill - I linked it upthread since you demonstrably haven't read it.

CirclesWithinCircles · 18/04/2021 12:14

Heres a better link to the Lauren Jeska matter: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-39266777

IbrahimaRedTwo · 18/04/2021 12:16

This reply has been deleted

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Deadringer · 18/04/2021 12:18

@IbrahimaRedTwo

Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period

You could not be more wrong, and its not for you to decide.

Spot on.
TheABC · 18/04/2021 12:18

The staggering amount of sexism shown by OP is really depressing. They don't actually think females matter at all.

Cyntia123 · 18/04/2021 12:18

No trans women should not be able to take part in women's sports. The women will always be at a disadvantage as was shown with the mma fight when a woman got her scull fractured because a man who 'identified' as a woman was allowed to fight as a woman against women. Completely wrong and unfair on women. I wouldnt agree to genital inspections but surely the school would know what sex the child is by the birth certificate.

ASugarr · 18/04/2021 12:19

@TheABC

The staggering amount of sexism shown by OP is really depressing. They don't actually think females matter at all.
What is sexist?
OP posts:
lonel · 18/04/2021 12:19

Still waiting to hear which sports should be sex segregated.....

youvegottenminuteslynn · 18/04/2021 12:19

OP, answer honestly - have you actually read the bill?

It's increasingly clear you haven't. Which is troubling considering you have said it mandates child abuse and are so vehemently opposed to a part of the bill that doesn't exist. You said it was a requirement, it isn't. It's an option.

You demonstrably haven't read the bill.

You used a comment from an opponent of the bill and stated it as fact.

You have said some sport should be sex segregated (not gender segregated) but haven't confirmed which ones or why. Unless you fancy doing that now?

BiBabbles · 18/04/2021 12:19

As this is a state law, it'll quite likely be challenged in the higher courts and dealt with as many laws like this have, but whatever the

state representative said (remember these are politicians with possibly little knowledge of how it works on the ground), there been things in place for decades to determine sex in schools. I had to do it in the '90s, many states require physicals for children to compete in school sports and for the boys, that does sometimes include a scrotal check. Ever heard of 'turn your head and cough'?

And, except for very small high schools, it isn't about who 'deserves' to play sports, it's about who makes the team and some schools have rules about who can even try to be on what teams. I actually have far more issues with the rules, sometimes laws, that require certain academic attainment to do extra curricular activities or to be allowed to compete, but that's just me. Yes, sometimes that means those on certain medications for certain conditions can't compete either. None of this is about "deserves".

Also Exactly but if we are going to be specific this is aimed at children, meaning at the oldest 16. As this is about Florida schools, it actually will mean the oldest for high school could be 19 and collegiate can be any age.

However for those who aren't comfortable doing that I don't think they should be forced to.

Why should someone trained for single sex sports be forced to be comfortable competing mixed sex?

I benefited from legally being protected to compete mixed sex in school in the US when there was no girls' option for the sport involved, but I'm also aware that the schools have to put in additional measures for safeguarding to do this - something not all school districts can afford to do well - and it did put me and the boys I competed against sometimes in uncomfortable positions.

Have you ever competed mixed sex ASugarr? I wrestled mixed sex in school, and yes, even with barely pubescent boys there is a significant difference. Yes, some girls can beat some boys, but girl needs to train differently to compete with boys compared to against other girls in order to do win and also to prevent injury -- you can't just throw a female child who has never competed against someone male and expect good results. There are greater risks that must be considered and should be consented to. I support mixed sex being an option, but not being made mandatory.

17 year old me had the illustrious experience of having an ~14 year old boy my weight throw me several meters across the room and into the thankfully padded wall - and he was a scrawny little barely pubescent thing as the pair of us were both 100 pounds soaking wet. In some sports, there is a severe disadvantage that has be accepted and specifically trained for and in some sports, like powerlifting which has solidly kept its single sex rules, there is no way without significant hormones involved for a female to outcompete a male of the same weight class and training.

And no, we never changed in front of each other - I wasn't even allowed in the boys' locker room without two adults as escort because putting a 100 pound female teenager in a locker room with a couple dozen boys, some of which hated my guts and nearly all of them significantly larger than me, would have been fucking stupid no matter what I thought of myself at the time -- but I imagine in these arguments, female teens like I was aren't who is being considered vulnerable. I'm glad my school knew otherwise and that there are more options for girls to compete against other girls in contact sports than there used to be.

Grimbelina · 18/04/2021 12:20

How does it actually affect you ASugarr ?

I support the rights of all men and women including people who consider themselves trans not to be abused etc. etc.

However, maybe we should be asking all those girls/women (sex assumed at birth) who have trained for years whether they think it is fair that boys/men (sex assumed at birth) should be allowed to compete against them, win all the prizes and possibly put them at risk (in various ways) due to a number of physical advantages.

Similarly, it is not my place to decide that men (sex assumed at birth) should be allowed to be incarcerated alongside women (many vulnerable) in prisons or allowed into refuges.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/04/2021 12:21

What is sexist?

She explained in the part you quoted, OP.

CutieBear · 18/04/2021 12:21

@ASugarr boys and men have a physiological advantage. It is not fair that girls and women are expected to compete against biological boys and men (after puberty has started). No matter how hard a woman trains, men who train the same amount will beat them at running, weight lifting, swimming, football etc. I think tennis is the only sport where men and women are equal and should be expected to do the same amount of sets.

FightingTheFoo · 18/04/2021 12:22

“Sports is already bias on physical ability anyway. Like how only tall people end up doing professional basketball (because obviously it gives them an advantage). Is their biological advantage unfair?” - @ASugarr

Out of curiosity I googled the average height of women's NBA players versus men's NBA players:

Average women's height is 5 foot 9 inches / 6 feet
Average men's height is 6 foot 7

So yes, sports is already biased based on physical ability. Why on earth would you accentuate that bias and make women even more disadvantaged by putting male-bodied people - with their physical advantages - in against women?

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