Nordic model demand in Daily Mail

[LadyVymes]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482555/MARY-HARRINGTON-social-justice-warriors-backing-men-pay-sex.html

@Stealhsquirrelnutkin

If I were an all powerful deity, I would arrange a surprise for every person who chants the mantra that "sex work is work", derides ex-prostitutes as whorephobic, and insists on social media that selling access to your most private orifices is no different to cleaning toilets or working at McDonalds.

They'd fall asleep, and when they woke up they'd find themselves trapped in a mega brothel, in a country where they don't speak the language and their language is not understood by anyone else.

I'd leave them here for at least 6 weeks. Forced to service every revolting punter who'd paid the entry fee. Over and over again. With no right to refuse unsavoury clients, painful positions, or to restrict access to any of their tender, bruised orifices, and with no control over condom use.

Day after day and week after week of constant vilification, degradation, pain and exhaustion, with nowhere else to go and nobody to turn to.

I wonder how long it would take, under those circumstances, for the sex work is work mantra chanters to change their tune? Would any of them need to be sent back for a second stint? Even if they didn't learn any empathy, surely the thought of going back and experiencing it again would be a deterrent?

Most of the male SWIW enthusiasts picture themselves doing the buying, or skimming off the profits. The ones who insist that they find sex work empowering are picturing themselves as Pretty Woman style escorts, or getting money for old rope via their OnlyFans pages.

So I'm hoping that they'd get the message pretty quickly, and learn to feign empathy, even if they are too sociopathic to feel it. Or, failing that, and me being an omnipotent deity and all. I would just smite the fuck out of them.

Thank you for summing up my thoughts so precisely.

When I listen to sex work advocates it's clear they are describing the well educated, well paid self employed woman who does a bit on a side to afford a nicer handbag. They seem to not realise nor care that people like those you describe actually exist. That they can say so clearly "well, I'm alright, Jack" and ignore all those who aren't is actually sickening.

The sex worker I know is one of these so called happy, empowered, bossbabe type. But even she only does it when she's desperate for money. Can't think why she doesn't realise that.

Resharing this excellent Sheila Jeffreys quote posted on the feminist quotes thread, because it bears repeating:

The effect of legalised prostitution on women outside prostitution is to lower the status of all women. Women are recognised by the state in this system as the appropriate objects of male penetration with no consideration for their personhood or pleasure. This teaches that the penetration and use of an unwilling woman is ‘sex’, an idea that lies at the root of sexual violence against women in general. There is no chance of developing a sexuality of equality in which women’s pleasure, right to say no, and bodily integrity are respected whilst the violence of prostitution is allowed to continue with state support for men’s behaviour.

"Why - that hasn't been found to be the case in Nordic countries. Claims that it will make punters more violent have not turned out to be true."

See my links in post Mon 26-Apr-21 23:50:20

"All the studies indicate a very high rate of violence towards the people in prostitution, but there is no definitive evidence of any actual increase due to the sex purchase ban. Similarly claims that the sex purchase ban has driven prostitution underground and made it more dangerous are not supported by the research. Rather the evidence underlines the fact that prostitution is always dangerous."

nordicmodelnow.org/2019/12/22/has-the-nordic-model-worked-what-does-the-research-say/

@GNCQ

Former sex workers are listened to in this debate and many in favour of the NM are former sex workers who plead with parliament to find safer ways for women to leave poverty.

Current Sex Workers are NOT being listened to in this debate, and Former Sex Workers are only listened to if it suits the agenda it seems.

Look, I'm not trying to say Sex Work is great and all roses. I was a Sex Worker for many years, I suppose it was the 'least worst' option for me when the disability benefits I needed are made so difficult to get in this country. I chose sex work over real poverty.

Yes, many former sex workers and indeed many people in general plead with parliament to end poverty. Yet have they been listened to over the past 10 years? No!! Benefits were cut and frozen for 10 years whilst living and housing costs rise and rise, the UN condemning the UK's treatment of the disabled, problems affording and finding childcare, and they even brought in the 2 Child policy and rape clause - which massively impacts women.

Unless and until poverty is eradicated, people (mostly women) WILL still trade sex for money. I'd rather that Sex Workers are able to be as safe as possible. The Nordic Model HINDERS our safety. Taking the ideology out of it, that's a fact.

If I had a bad experience with a punter, I could more easily go to the police just now as the law stands - with selling and buying being legal. If the Nordic Model came in, would I feel able to go to the police?? Like hell I would!! Because then the police would be able to use knowledge of where I work from to wait outside to 'catch' clients. The place would be un-workable. It can be difficult to find places to work from. Just now without the NM, the police can and do take my report seriously but it won't affect my place to work.

With buying being legal, the punters are not as cagey in giving out their details for screening. Under the Nordic Model, clients try to withhold this info for fear of getting arrested.

Like someone else said, the NM won't discourage the (few) clients out to be violent, but it will put off some of the other clients. Making Sex Workers have to take more risks to make up income because the pool of clients is less.

Condoms are used as evidence in Nordic Model countries.

Sex Workers have been evicted from their homes, lost custody of their Children, been killed in numbers exceeding before, in countries which have adopted the NM.

There are ALREADY robust laws regarding trafficking, coercion etc. It was made a strict liability offence a few years back, so even if the punter doesn't know the woman was trafficked or forced, he is still prosecuted. I support this, but I don't support the NM. There are already laws in place.

I don't give a fuck about the clients. We are not trying to defend the clients. We just care about our safety.

Have you read the article about the situation in New Zealand labhra? Is that what you're advocating for?

@MargaritaPie

*"So then why advocate for criminalisation or partial-criminalisation (eg Nordic model)

Because based on the available evidence this seems like the least injurious system for women if we have to accept prostitution in the short to medium term."*

decrimnow.org.uk/open-letter-on-the-nordic-model/

A rather impressive list of orgs (including very established well-known ones) and individuals disagree with the Nordic model (see signatures at the end of above letter). It isn't just Amnesty.

I can't be the only one wondering why the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen are on that list.

I can't be the only one wondering why the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen are on that list.

Probably because they've been Stonewalled. It's all wrapped up together nowadays, this misogynistic shite.

The latest signature for the DecrimNow letter is lionesscircle. "The Lioness Circle is a creative healing support network for black women and girls recovering from domestic abuse and sexual violence."

Have they been "Stonewalled" too?

@MargaritaPie

The latest signature for the DecrimNow letter is lionesscircle. "The Lioness Circle is a creative healing support network for black women and girls recovering from domestic abuse and sexual violence."

Have they been "Stonewalled" too?

What's your take on why the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen are on that list?

The Sex Work is Work advocates are trying to have their cake and eat it.

Claiming endlessly that "sex work" is a job just like any other, but then if you are opposed to that work, you're a henious bigot.

Let's be very clear. Prostitution is hideous, exploitative work, which harms women as a class. We don't want it to exist anymore. To finish an industry, you need to remove demand for that industry and that's what the Nordic Model aims to do.

The arguments made against ending prostitution are exactly the same as those made against eliminating slavery and child labour. That it would be harmful to slaves and children forced into work and that they actually happy and would starve otherwise.

Those arguments, thankfully didn't work. That sex work advocates are dusting them off to justify the subjugation of women is predictable and unsurprising.

I saw an interesting court case tweet today:

twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1387733202983440384?s=19

About whether care workers could legally facilitate someone to have sex with a prostitute. I thought it was interesting that the judgement was all about the ability of the person in care to consent, no consideration at all given to the poor woman who was going to be purchased. And I know this is the way the law is, but it made me angry, and I think illustrates why the purchase of sex should be criminalised.

I thought it was interesting that the judgement was all about the ability of the person in care to consent, no consideration at all given to the poor woman who was going to be purchased.

Sarah Ditum raised an interesting point about the man's history of violence. I've no idea how far his capacity to desire sex and arrange for its purchase is deemed to extend to his capacity at this point to manage his violence.

Judgment discusses C's history of violence and challenging behaviour such that C had to move out of the family home for everybody's sake. C was detained in a secure facility from 2014-17 from which is was discharged to his current home.

The package of support C receives requires the deprivation of his liberty and, since 2017, the Court of Protection has authorised the deprivation (see para 178 Schedule A1 Mental Capacity Act 2005, ‘MCA’)…C’s admission had become necessary as a result of a deterioration in his mental health and threats that he was articulating which were of a sexual nature. For accuracy, it is important that I record that the threats were never acted upon…

As a result of his progress it was possible for C to be discharged to his current home

It is important to emphasise that nobody considers it appropriate for the contemplated sexual activity to be arranged with a street sex worker. Indeed, because of the risks inherent in such a situation, not least and potentially not limited to C, the Local Authority’s plan is thought substantially to reduce the risk of this occurring.

I noticed another comment:

it has been noted by deputies that such [commercial sex] services have proved beneficial for clients and their support teams, particularly where difficult behaviour has been previously exhibited. This may be more prevalent for young male clients, particularly if they are living with a brain injury;

There is some discussion of managing risk factors by services suppliers who are vetted and have their preferences available in profiles on a managed support site.

At this hearing and in this judgment, I am not considering any plan for C to visit a sex worker. That decision will be for another day when a comprehensive risk assessment has been undertaken and a care plan devised which will illuminate whether and if so, how such a visit may be arranged. As is recognised, the matrix of risk in C’s present situation is likely to be very different from that which obtained in a psychotic episode he experienced as a young person
…
Those who read this judgment will notice that I have used the terms ‘prostitute’ and ‘sex worker’ interchangeably, for the reasons I have alluded to above. The former has an intentionally pejorative connotation, the latter signifies a degree of volition which will not always reflect the reality. Both terms are therefore unsatisfactory in different ways. I have taken some time in the above passages to set out some of the options and agencies that would be available to C.
…
The documents ends:
I will have in mind that it will never be in C’s interest to put himself or others at risk.

There is a fascinating potted history of consent issues for some groups. I'm left wondering about consent issues for the parties who provide services to some extent.

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/A-Local-Authority-v-C-and-ors-judgment.pdf

I thought it was interesting that the judgement was all about the ability of the person in care to consent, no consideration at all given to the poor woman who was going to be purchased. And I know this is the way the law is, but it made me angry, and I think illustrates why the purchase of sex should be criminalised.

I agree. I don't believe anyone should be given the state enabled right to contract prostitutes. Sex is not a right. A woman's body is not a right.

I agree. I don't believe anyone should be given the state enabled right to contract prostitutes. Sex is not a right. A woman's body is not a right

I have seen it argued that Article 8 enshrines a right to sex through a broad interpretation of
"The concept of private life also covers your right to develop your personal identity and to forge friendships and other relationships".

I very much hope this interpretation is wrong.

I think having a right to forge friendships and other relationships doesn't necessarily need to encompass state purchase of prostitutes for men, a transaction which is illegal in several other European countries including the Republic of Ireland.

Compassion for the male human being who is disabled, no compassion for the female support human providing the relief.

In 1999, Sweden banned paying for sex. Almost a decade later, a study showed that the number of prostituted women there was a tenth of the total in neighbouring Denmark, where buying sex was, and still is, legal.

This is from the Daily Mail article. I have tried to find this statistic online but not found it anywhere. As far as I can tell this is a false statistic. I assume that it comes from the Skarhed report but I have looked at this report and it doesn't say anything like this. So it's another lie.

How about evidence from a Stockholm police officer? Or is he lying too...

"Simon Haggstrom, an officer in the prostitution unit of Stockholm police, is on the frontline of this push to stop men from paying for sex. "My job is to arrest as many men buying sex as possible and I think I have arrested about 700 men since 2007. [They] should know that they are taking a huge risk: they are considering going out into the central parts of Stockholm actually buying another human being. We will go after them."
He says the number of prostitutes has dramatically decreased since the law was introduced, from 2,500 across Sweden in 1998 to about 1,000 today."

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/dec/11/prostitution-sweden-model-reform-men-pay-sex?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

There seems to be some confusion about prostitutes getting arrested in Nordic model countries. Earlier in this thread someone wrote "And you're completely confused about the Nordic model. Prostitutes are not arrested under the Nordic Model. The punters and enablers are." Another wrote "I can't recall seeing reports of these almost mythical 2 prostitutes working together being prosecuted. There certainly have been prosecutions of pimps, traffickers and brothel keepers."

Theory and practice are two different things. In theory prostitutes are decriminalized in Nordic model countries. In practice it has never been illegal to be a prostitute but it continues to be illegal to keep a brothel. Also the police demand that landlords evict prostitutes.

The Irish Republic has been a Nordic model country for a few years and there has been an official report on how it is doing. I quote from this report by Dr Geoffrey Shannon.

However, there is a concern that women who are not themselves organising prostitution or profiting from the exploitation of the prostitution of others may have, on occasion, been targeted under this law. The highest profile incidence of this happening was the conviction and the sentencing of two young Romanian women for brothel keeping, one of whom was pregnant. The women pleaded guilty, were granted bail and were sentenced to nine months in prison for which they are currently appealing.

It is clear that the implementation varies, but the Swedish Police force say it has led to a reduction in prostitution and the majority of the population in Sweden - particularly young people support the law.

He says the number of prostitutes has dramatically decreased since the law was introduced, from 2,500 across Sweden in 1998 to about 1,000 today.

There is no reference for this figure. In 1996 the proportion of Swedish men who were active sex buyers was 1.3%. Then there was the sex buyer law in 1999. In 2008, when the next survey was conducted, the figure had risen to 1.8%. This is from the report by Mujaj and Netscher in 2014. If it has decreased since 2008, the year of the financial crisis, then we have no reason to believe it is because of the 1999 law.

@Stealhsquirrelnutkin

If I were an all powerful deity, I would arrange a surprise for every person who chants the mantra that "sex work is work", derides ex-prostitutes as whorephobic, and insists on social media that selling access to your most private orifices is no different to cleaning toilets or working at McDonalds.

They'd fall asleep, and when they woke up they'd find themselves trapped in a mega brothel, in a country where they don't speak the language and their language is not understood by anyone else.

I'd leave them here for at least 6 weeks. Forced to service every revolting punter who'd paid the entry fee. Over and over again. With no right to refuse unsavoury clients, painful positions, or to restrict access to any of their tender, bruised orifices, and with no control over condom use.

Day after day and week after week of constant vilification, degradation, pain and exhaustion, with nowhere else to go and nobody to turn to.

I wonder how long it would take, under those circumstances, for the sex work is work mantra chanters to change their tune? Would any of them need to be sent back for a second stint? Even if they didn't learn any empathy, surely the thought of going back and experiencing it again would be a deterrent?

Most of the male SWIW enthusiasts picture themselves doing the buying, or skimming off the profits. The ones who insist that they find sex work empowering are picturing themselves as Pretty Woman style escorts, or getting money for old rope via their OnlyFans pages.

So I'm hoping that they'd get the message pretty quickly, and learn to feign empathy, even if they are too sociopathic to feel it. Or, failing that, and me being an omnipotent deity and all. I would just smite the fuck out of them.

The element you're taking away here is choice. You're talking about sex trafficking which usually co-exists with, but is separate from prostitution. It's funny you bring up McDonald's, because there aren't many people qualified for sex work but unqualified to work there. There's an obvious reason why some people may choose sex work over minimum wage though.

""Simon Haggstrom, an officer in the prostitution unit of Stockholm police, is on the frontline of this push to stop men from paying for sex. "My job is to arrest as many men buying sex as possible and I think I have arrested about 700 men since 2007."

A 2012 report by the UN HIV and the Law Commission reveals in the first 13 years of the Nordic Model in Sweden there were 2,000 arrests. Sound good? What if I told you out of all of these arrests there were just 2 convictions, they pleaded guilty and got a low fine.

The Nordic Model is unworkable as the report says sex workers aren't willing to testify against their clients.

The report says funding for Social Work is low in Sweden because the money is siphoned into policing. Not only is it almost impossible to get convictions it's not a cheap law to try to enforce either.

www.hivlawandpolicy.org/sites/default/files/FinalReport-Risks%2CRights%26Health-EN.pdf page 38

Of course arrests act as deterrents though don't they. Which has probably contributed to the reduction of prostitution in Sweden where the (Nordic Model) law remains popular. I guess if you had a vested interest in not seeing a reduction in prostitution then any idea of it being introduced here would be met with resistance. It's not really a coincidence that it's been brought in in countries with the most progressive sex equality laws.