Nordic model demand in Daily Mail

[LadyVymes]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482555/MARY-HARRINGTON-social-justice-warriors-backing-men-pay-sex.html

Useful reminder, thanks Sophocles

"I have no desire to see prostitutes made criminals, only then people that exploit them. That's the traffickers, pimps and punters. You know, the people making profit out of selling women."

So then why advocate for criminalisation or partial-criminalisation (eg Nordic model) laws which result in the prostitutes themselves arrested for working together or being evicted or having their earnings reduced (with noone offering to compensate them for the money they would otherwise have made)?

"Sure in theory, but it doesn't really work in practice because you can't prove which woman is the manager. "

What makes you think there has to be just "one manager"? They are both arrested. See the link above in my 18:34:42 post about the raids in USA, the cops will arrest and charge all the prostitutes in a brothel.

So then why advocate for criminalisation or partial-criminalisation (eg Nordic model)

Because based on the available evidence this seems like the least injurious system for women if we have to accept prostitution in the short to medium term.

By contrast, in Germany, selling and buying sex have been legal since 2002. But this hasn't caused trafficking to disappear – in fact quite the reverse. By 2007, the UN had recognised Germany as a top destination for victims of trafficking.*

Which is common sense isn't it...

If you make it legal, it reduces the shame/potential impact for the men.

Demand goes up.

Supply has to follow.

Hence women trafficked in to meet the demand and/or more vulnerable women go down that route.

This description of how the Nordic model was successfully implemented in Ipswich is really interesting:
nordicmodelnow.org/2017/11/14/how-a-nordic-model-approach-to-tackling-prostitution-was-implemented-in-ipswich/

@MargaritaPie

"I can't recall seeing reports of these almost mythical 2 prostitutes working together being prosecuted. There certainly have been prosecutions of pimps, traffickers and brothel keepers."

In the eyes of the cops in Britain, if there is more than one prostitute working together at the same place they are guilty of "brothel keeping".

I'm perfectly aware what the law is.

@MargaritaPie

"I have a couple of rental flats and I would have no hesitation about evicting prostitutes using them as a brothel."

Would you still evict the prostitute if she wasn't using it as a brothel? i.e. just working as a prostitute by herself.

What if that was her home and selling sex was her only income and her eviction would send her into the streets with nothing?

Yes. I would. I don't want the other people in the tenement stair having to put up with punters, nor do I want rent money from the black economy.

*"So then why advocate for criminalisation or partial-criminalisation (eg Nordic model)

Because based on the available evidence this seems like the least injurious system for women if we have to accept prostitution in the short to medium term."*

decrimnow.org.uk/open-letter-on-the-nordic-model/

A rather impressive list of orgs (including very established well-known ones) and individuals disagree with the Nordic model (see signatures at the end of above letter). It isn't just Amnesty.

@MargaritaPie

"I have no desire to see prostitutes made criminals, only then people that exploit them. That's the traffickers, pimps and punters. You know, the people making profit out of selling women."

So then why advocate for criminalisation or partial-criminalisation (eg Nordic model) laws which result in the prostitutes themselves arrested for working together or being evicted or having their earnings reduced (with noone offering to compensate them for the money they would otherwise have made)?

"Sure in theory, but it doesn't really work in practice because you can't prove which woman is the manager. "

What makes you think there has to be just "one manager"? They are both arrested. See the link above in my 18:34:42 post about the raids in USA, the cops will arrest and charge all the prostitutes in a brothel.

I honestly don't know what you expect British women to be able to do about law enforcement in America....

In the UK, prostitutes working together in a flat are treated quite leniently unless there's another illegal activity going on like soliciting/drugs.

And you're completely confused about the Nordic model. Prostitutes are not arrested under the Nordic Model. The punters and enablers are.

@MargaritaPie

*"So then why advocate for criminalisation or partial-criminalisation (eg Nordic model)

Because based on the available evidence this seems like the least injurious system for women if we have to accept prostitution in the short to medium term."*

decrimnow.org.uk/open-letter-on-the-nordic-model/

A rather impressive list of orgs (including very established well-known ones) and individuals disagree with the Nordic model (see signatures at the end of above letter). It isn't just Amnesty.

Hmm one might think we live in a patriarchy or something...

"Prostitutes are not arrested under the Nordic Model. "

Not for selling sexual services, but they are for working together ("running a brothel"). And they end up evicted because it becomes illegal for landlords to rent property to a prostitute (whether she works alone or not).

The Nordic Model isn't the simple "selling sex is legal, buying sex is illegal" it is advertised as, it's made up of a bunch of criminalisation laws which may not be in the best interest of the sex worker. Which is probably why a large list of orgs and people don't support it.

A rather impressive list of orgs (including very established well-known ones) and individuals disagree with the Nordic model (see signatures at the end of above letter). It isn't just Amnesty.

I'm not very much impressed by many organisations when it comes to women's rights nowadays - which organisations are you referring to and what is their problem with the Nordic model? Because claims it leads to greater violence against women have not been proven to be true in Nordic countries: in fact all that's been proven is being involved in any sort of prostitution brings an increased risk of violence (mostly to poor/trafficked/vulnerable women).

If I were an all powerful deity, I would arrange a surprise for every person who chants the mantra that "sex work is work", derides ex-prostitutes as whorephobic, and insists on social media that selling access to your most private orifices is no different to cleaning toilets or working at McDonalds.

They'd fall asleep, and when they woke up they'd find themselves trapped in a mega brothel, in a country where they don't speak the language and their language is not understood by anyone else.

I'd leave them here for at least 6 weeks. Forced to service every revolting punter who'd paid the entry fee. Over and over again. With no right to refuse unsavoury clients, painful positions, or to restrict access to any of their tender, bruised orifices, and with no control over condom use.

Day after day and week after week of constant vilification, degradation, pain and exhaustion, with nowhere else to go and nobody to turn to.

I wonder how long it would take, under those circumstances, for the sex work is work mantra chanters to change their tune? Would any of them need to be sent back for a second stint? Even if they didn't learn any empathy, surely the thought of going back and experiencing it again would be a deterrent?

Most of the male SWIW enthusiasts picture themselves doing the buying, or skimming off the profits. The ones who insist that they find sex work empowering are picturing themselves as Pretty Woman style escorts, or getting money for old rope via their OnlyFans pages.

So I'm hoping that they'd get the message pretty quickly, and learn to feign empathy, even if they are too sociopathic to feel it. Or, failing that, and me being an omnipotent deity and all. I would just smite the fuck out of them.

"Because claims it leads to greater violence against women have not been proven to be true in Nordic countries"

Sweden:
"The Swedish State Criminal Department warns that the sex trade may now be more violent. Especially worrying is the trade in foreign women, who often fall entirely under the control of pimps."
hivlawcommission.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/FinalReport-RisksRightsHealth-EN.pdf p38

France:
www.pion-norge.no/aktuelt/more-than-10-sex-workers-have-been-killed-in-6-months/

Ireland:
"Sex workers in Ireland have reported a 92 percent increase in violent crime since the “Nordic Model” came into place in March 2017."
www.pion-norge.no/aktuelt/more-than-10-sex-workers-have-been-killed-in-6-months/

Think of it this way- if a violent client isn't going to be deterred by laws against murder/assault/rape/theft/etc he isn't going to be deterred by a law against buying sex will he?

With the Nordic model the pool of clients can be expected to shrink a little yes, but that means the clients which remain will be more saturated with violent ones and sex workers will have less choice of clients to take bookings from during the vetting process.

@Stealhsquirrelnutkin

If I were an all powerful deity, I would arrange a surprise for every person who chants the mantra that "sex work is work", derides ex-prostitutes as whorephobic, and insists on social media that selling access to your most private orifices is no different to cleaning toilets or working at McDonalds.

They'd fall asleep, and when they woke up they'd find themselves trapped in a mega brothel, in a country where they don't speak the language and their language is not understood by anyone else.

I'd leave them here for at least 6 weeks. Forced to service every revolting punter who'd paid the entry fee. Over and over again. With no right to refuse unsavoury clients, painful positions, or to restrict access to any of their tender, bruised orifices, and with no control over condom use.

Day after day and week after week of constant vilification, degradation, pain and exhaustion, with nowhere else to go and nobody to turn to.

I wonder how long it would take, under those circumstances, for the sex work is work mantra chanters to change their tune? Would any of them need to be sent back for a second stint? Even if they didn't learn any empathy, surely the thought of going back and experiencing it again would be a deterrent?

Most of the male SWIW enthusiasts picture themselves doing the buying, or skimming off the profits. The ones who insist that they find sex work empowering are picturing themselves as Pretty Woman style escorts, or getting money for old rope via their OnlyFans pages.

So I'm hoping that they'd get the message pretty quickly, and learn to feign empathy, even if they are too sociopathic to feel it. Or, failing that, and me being an omnipotent deity and all. I would just smite the fuck out of them.

This is an excellent post squirrel

Sex work is prostitution is the commodification of women's bodies is the exploitation of the default human is the degradation of the 'inferior' sex. It is not and should not be considered a career and that is where the Nordic model is clear - building a business based on selling women's bodies is not acceptable.

"Forced to service every revolting punter who'd paid the entry fee...... and with no control over condom use."

These is a dangerous myth to spread. Sex workers are not "forced" to do anything (that is called being raped). They can say no . If a client turns up stinking or if he is rude or refuses to use a condom for example she can ask him to leave, and if he refuses she can call the cops.

In fact, countries which have criminalisation (including the Nordic model), condoms are used as evidence by cops. Which makes it more likely they won't be used. Health orgs understand this which is why they don't support this model.

Sex workers are not "forced" to do anything (that is called being raped). They can say no . If a client turns up stinking or if he is rude or refuses to use a condom for example she can ask him to leave, and if he refuses she can call the cops.

As a rough estimate, in how many countries is that accurate? As per squirrel's post, would you expect trafficked women would be free to contact the police (in the language of whichever country)?

Margarita
So the trafficked women in German brothels who were beaten for not earning enough could just turn away a punter.

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/jun/22/trouble-in-paradise-rise-and-fall-of-germany-brothel-king-jurgen-rudloff

The Nordic model hasn't worked in Northern Ireland or the Irish Republic so why would you want to introduce it here. There are 2 reports, one for NI and the Republic, which show that it doesn't decrease demand, women are not getting help to exit and women are still arrested.

Amnesty International is sticking up for women not pimps and punters. Most sex workers in Britain are not abused and exploited. Modern day slavery takes many forms and we have to tackle it wherever we see it. A blanket ban on paying for sex won't work.

I used to be a sex worker for many years. I DO NOT support the Nordic Model at all. It would just put sex workers in more danger.

For some reason sex workers themselves are not being listened to in this debate on issues which will affect them. We are telling you it will put us in more danger, and yet we are not listened to.

Former sex workers are listened to in this debate and many in favour of the NM are former sex workers who plead with parliament to find safer ways for women to leave poverty.

@labhra

I used to be a sex worker for many years. I DO NOT support the Nordic Model at all. It would just put sex workers in more danger.

For some reason sex workers themselves are not being listened to in this debate on issues which will affect them. We are telling you it will put us in more danger, and yet we are not listened to.

Why - that hasn't been found to be the case in Nordic countries. Claims that it will make punters more violent have not turned out to be true.

Sex workers are not "forced" to do anything

How on Earth can you claim that for all sex workers?