Help explain non binary

[Educationneeded]

Hi, thread was inspired by the other about coming out as GC. I have name changed as I’m not ready to be outed so just incase.

I am GC, although only have expressed my views to close friends and family. My younger sister is due to go up to high school in September and six months ago came out as non binary. We all believe this decision was heavily influenced by TikTok and the wokeness on there.

My parents don’t really understand. My Dad just rolls his eyes but my Mum wants to learn however doesn’t know much on the subject and has asked me to talk to my sister. I have no idea how to even approach the topic with her. Anyone have any guidance? Anything I can tell or show my Mum? I’ve read a lot on trans and women’s right but not much on non binary and don’t really know where to start with this minefield. I guess I’d like to educate myself too.

If you didn't have a female gender identity, then the statement "you are a woman" would immediately seem wrong to you. It doesn't, so you have a female gender identity.

If someone said “you are a woman” it wouldn’t “feel right”, it would be right, because I am a woman.

I could only have a “male gender identity” if I were mistaken about what sex I am.

"I'd react the same way to "you are a woman" as I would to "you are a human" or "you have blue eyes". To me, it's a value-neutral biological fact. If I disliked the fact I was a woman and didn't want to be one, I'd react the same way to "you are a woman" as I would to "you are overweight" — I don't like it, and it might upset me to think too much about it, but it's a boring old fact."

Right, so you have a female gender identity. That's fine. So do I.

@Shizuku

"I'd react the same way to "you are a woman" as I would to "you are a human" or "you have blue eyes". To me, it's a value-neutral biological fact. If I disliked the fact I was a woman and didn't want to be one, I'd react the same way to "you are a woman" as I would to "you are overweight" — I don't like it, and it might upset me to think too much about it, but it's a boring old fact."

Right, so you have a female gender identity. That's fine. So do I.

So, by "female gender identity" you mean the same class of thing as "human species identity" or "eye colour identity"? That is, my "gender identity" is what I know to be factually true about the sex of my body based on physical evidence, the same way I know about the species I am or the colour my eyes are? That doesn't sound like the kind of thing gender identitists are talking about when they advocate for their various causes… :-/

"So, by "female gender identity" you mean the same class of thing as "human species identity" or "eye colour identity"? That is, my "gender identity" is what I know to be factually true about the sex of my body based on physical evidence, the same way I know about the species I am or the colour my eyes are?"

It's your innate knowledge of your own sex. Your mistake is thinking that it is purely derived from observing what reproductive organs you have, when actually it's something you are born with, hard-wired into the brain.

www.endocrine.org/advocacy/position-statements/transgender-health

"The medical consensus in the late 20th century was that transgender and gender incongruent individuals suffered a mental health disorder termed “gender identity disorder.” Gender identity was considered malleable and subject to external influences. Today, however, this attitude is no longer considered valid. Considerable scientific evidence has emerged demonstrating a durable biological element underlying gender identity.1, 2 Individuals may make choices due to other factors in their lives, but there do not seem to be external forces that genuinely cause individuals to change gender identity."

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1421517/

It's like saying

Do you like fixgloves

Yes, especially the evergreen ones

What evergreen ones?

Oh I call the plants I like fixgloves because foxgloves are lovely, here's one

Oh you mean holly? I don't like holly as it prickly

It's not holly it's a foxglove

Or are you saying that I could have an eye-colour identity of brown-eyed, despite my eyes being unequivocally blue? Presumably, whether I choose to wear brown contacts or not (my eye colour expression), I could have a deeply felt inner conviction that despite my eyes being blue on the outside, I feel like a brown-eyed person and should be treated as one. But what does being a brown-eyed person feel like, if there are no stereotypes or cultural roles attached to it?

@midgedude

It's like saying

Do you like fixgloves

Yes, especially the evergreen ones

What evergreen ones?

Oh I call the plants I like fixgloves because foxgloves are lovely, here's one

Oh you mean holly? I don't like holly as it prickly

It's not holly it's a foxglove

A harsh but fair appraisal of the GC position.

@FrankensteinIsTheMonster

Or are you saying that I could have an eye-colour identity of brown-eyed, despite my eyes being unequivocally blue? Presumably, whether I choose to wear brown contacts or not (my eye colour expression), I could have a deeply felt inner conviction that despite my eyes being blue on the outside, I feel like a brown-eyed person and should be treated as one. But what does being a brown-eyed person feel like, if there are no stereotypes or cultural roles attached to it?

Is that a thing? I have never come across it.

Shizuku the idea of female brain went out of fashion a long, long time ago.

Brains are not sexed, apart from the obvious XX and XY which no one ever seems to want to discuss when they mention "brain sex".

It's your innate knowledge of your own sex. Your mistake is thinking that it is purely derived from observing what reproductive organs you have, when actually it's something you are born with, hard-wired into the brain.

How do people know they have this disordered perception?

@Shizuku do you have any idea how offensive what you are saying is?

Your assertion that being a woman is all about how one 'identifies'? That the only way someone would say 'I am a woman' is if they have a female gender identity.

It's so insulting to all of the women throughout history and across the world for whom biological sex is absolutely fuck all to do with their identity.

Malala Yousafzai, victims of FGM, girls in period huts, women who can't access an abortion - they all know they are women. How do they know that? Clue, it has absolutely nothing to do with how they identify. They could never identify out of their experiences that happened to them because of their female bodies.

Please stop it.

Is that a thing? I have never come across it.

Don't play thick.

It's your innate knowledge of your own sex. Your mistake is thinking that it is purely derived from observing what reproductive organs you have, when actually it's something you are born with, hard-wired into the brain.

Why don't you ask Hibo Wardere about how she knows she is a woman?

@FrankensteinIsTheMonster

It's your innate knowledge of your own sex. Your mistake is thinking that it is purely derived from observing what reproductive organs you have, when actually it's something you are born with, hard-wired into the brain.

How do people know they have this disordered perception?

Does it feel completely wrong to you if someone refers to you as a woman? If not, you don't have this "disordered" perception.

I'm trying to think of an analogous "innate knowledge" I could have, which runs counter to all available evidence, and which everyone else would be required to validate.

Can't.

@FrankensteinIsTheMonster

Is that a thing? I have never come across it.

Don't play thick.

You mean like making spurious analogies? I'll tell you what, I'll take you seriously when psychologists start writing about eye-colour identity, studying how it forms and treating people who have eye-colour identity issues.

Does it feel completely wrong to you if someone refers to you as a woman?

Wrong in what way? Surely people in this situation recognise that when other people refer to them as a woman, they are using a word which has a definition that they fit.

@Letsgetreadytocrumble

It's your innate knowledge of your own sex. Your mistake is thinking that it is purely derived from observing what reproductive organs you have, when actually it's something you are born with, hard-wired into the brain.

Why don't you ask Hibo Wardere about how she knows she is a woman?

Why don't you ask a Somali trans man how he knows he's a man?

Spurious in what way? I genuinely want to know what the difference is.

@FrankensteinIsTheMonster

I'm trying to think of an analogous "innate knowledge" I could have, which runs counter to all available evidence, and which everyone else would be required to validate.

Can't.

Are we about to be graced with the old 'if you woke up tomorrow with a cock and balls you would feel discombobulated which means you have a female gender identity' argument again?

@FrankensteinIsTheMonster

Does it feel completely wrong to you if someone refers to you as a woman?

Wrong in what way? Surely people in this situation recognise that when other people refer to them as a woman, they are using a word which has a definition that they fit.

More evidence that you have a female gender identity - when someone calls you a woman, it feels completely right - you don't question it at all. You can relax, you're not trans.

Sorry GTG — was fun chatting :)

I simply cannot believe anyone can read a post laying out how women are both anally raped and vaginally raped, how the two things are both awful but different, and one leads to having to decide whether to abort/kill or keep, grow and nurture an unwanted human being, and then simply brush it off saying that someone else is "sick" to "downplay" rape of TW (which no one did).

Gleefully showing such contempt and a total lack of empathy for actual women human females is such a bad look. It's no wonder gender ideology is losing support in droves seeing as it's filled with people like this.

Shizuku Im confused about your position here.

You called the idea of believing one had a brain gender which you then confused with biological sex "disordered thinking", which I actually agree with. As usual, I cant keep up with the disordered conflation of sex and gender to even understand what that means.

So would you still affirm and validate this disordered thinking?