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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Help explain non binary

386 replies

Educationneeded · 17/04/2021 17:09

Hi, thread was inspired by the other about coming out as GC. I have name changed as I’m not ready to be outed so just incase.

I am GC, although only have expressed my views to close friends and family. My younger sister is due to go up to high school in September and six months ago came out as non binary. We all believe this decision was heavily influenced by TikTok and the wokeness on there.

My parents don’t really understand. My Dad just rolls his eyes but my Mum wants to learn however doesn’t know much on the subject and has asked me to talk to my sister. I have no idea how to even approach the topic with her. Anyone have any guidance? Anything I can tell or show my Mum? I’ve read a lot on trans and women’s right but not much on non binary and don’t really know where to start with this minefield. I guess I’d like to educate myself too.

OP posts:
BadGherkin · 27/04/2021 14:17

I, and many other natal women, do not “identify” as a women - we just are women.

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 14:21

This reply has been deleted

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Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 27/04/2021 14:22

I, and many other natal women, do not “identify” as a women - we just are women.

This, with bells on. I don't need to identify as a woman, in the same way I don't have to identify as having green eyes.

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 14:22

@BadGherkin

I, and many other natal women, do not “identify” as a women - we just are women.
The fact that no part of you disagrees with the statement "you are a woman" means you have a female gender identity.
paralysedbyinertia · 27/04/2021 14:23

@Shizuku

"But as per my previous post, please explain what identifying as a woman actually means?"

You said you would be more comfortable being acknowledged as a woman rather than non-binary. So you identify as a woman.

No, I want to be called a woman because of my sex. I have no gender identity, I don't even know what gender identity means. It means nothing to me.

I do genuinely want to understand. Can you try to explain what you mean, please?

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 14:33

"I want to be called a woman because of my sex."

The fact that "woman" feels correct to you, means that you have a female gender identity.

BadGherkin · 27/04/2021 14:35

Who made you the arbiter of gender identity or sex class?

I don’t have a gender identity - I don’t identify with a “feminine” gender or a “masculine” gender.

I am a woman (XX of the sex class female).

The statement “I am a woman” in no way designates any gender identity.

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 14:39

@BadGherkin

Who made you the arbiter of gender identity or sex class?

I don’t have a gender identity - I don’t identify with a “feminine” gender or a “masculine” gender.

I am a woman (XX of the sex class female).

The statement “I am a woman” in no way designates any gender identity.

"The statement “I am a woman” in no way designates any gender identity."

It does if you don't feel it is in any way wrong for you. And you don't, so your gender identity is female.

paralysedbyinertia · 27/04/2021 14:44

@Shizuku

"I want to be called a woman because of my sex."

The fact that "woman" feels correct to you, means that you have a female gender identity.

Sorry, but I still don't understand. It isn't a feeling as far as I'm concerned. I want to be called a woman simply because I consider it to be a biological fact.

I can recognise that it doesn't seem to be about biology for some people, but I'm afraid that's where my understanding ends. If "being a woman" isn't about biological sex and isn't about stereotypes, what does it actually mean?

I am not trying to prove you wrong, I actually want to get my head around this. Two of my dd's friends identify as non-binary. I wish them no harm and I'm happy to use their chosen pronouns if it makes them happy. I just genuinely have no clue what people understand by the term "gender identity" if they are not referring to biological sex or gender stereotypes. It honestly feels like the Emperor's New Clothes to me...like it doesn't actually exist but nobody is brave enough to say so.

I want to understand. I don't want anyone to suffer. But I want someone to explain what they're actually talking about without just reducing it to the circular argument that someone is a woman because they feel like one. How do people know what feeling like a woman is if there is no definition of what it means to be a woman?

BadGherkin · 27/04/2021 14:44

No - actually my SEX is female.

I don’t have a gender identity.

Why are you trying to force a gender identity on others?

AssassinatedBeauty · 27/04/2021 14:47

@BadGherkin

No - actually my SEX is female.

I don’t have a gender identity.

Why are you trying to force a gender identity on others?

Quite. I know my sex, I don't have a gender identity.

To tell me I must have a gender identity is to try to tell me I must believe in an ideology that I don't believe in.

acatcalledjohn · 27/04/2021 14:49

"First off: It's often not obvious which women are infertile or in the menopause."

Or trans.

It's more obvious than an internal bodily function that isn't outwardly visible. Male characteristics developed through puberty don't magically disappear when identifying as trans.

I didn't downplay trans rape. But nice try.

paralysedbyinertia · 27/04/2021 14:52

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't understand what would feel wrong about being called a man or a woman if you don't attach any specific meaning to those words. If there is no definition of the terms man or woman, either in terms of biological sex or gender stereotypes, then surely they are just words without any specific meaning? Same with the pronouns? How could anyone feel strongly that certain words do or don't apply to them unless there is a particular meaning attached to those words that they feel does or doesn't apply to them?

So for me, I consider myself to be a woman because I define that word in terms of biological sex. I know that the term "man" doesn't apply to me for the same reasons.

For those who don't define these words in terms of sex/stereotypes, what do these words actually mean?

acatcalledjohn · 27/04/2021 14:53

I agree - I know several trans women who have been raped - they were all fairly young when it happened - of the ages I know for sure, one was 12, another was 44, but I don't count 44 as "old", and she doesn't look her age.

A transwoman cannot be of childbearing age and bear the additional risk of rape that is pregnancy simply because a transwoman cannot fall pregnant.

If your argument focussed on transmen we'd be in agreement. Because that is the only case where the risk involved with rape are the same. Basic biology.

midgedude · 27/04/2021 14:53

So If you are biologically female

Do you think there is anything about you beyond that that which makes you different to men ?

If no, then we have make gender identity, did I get that right?

Dinosauratemydaffodils · 27/04/2021 14:54

You said you would be more comfortable being acknowledged as a woman rather than non-binary. So you identify as a woman.

I find that really problematic. My teenager neice has decided I'm non binary and shared that with her friends. If I were 20 years younger, she'd possibly be correct. Certainly my sense of being a woman is rooted purely in biology. I'm uncomfortable with any definition of being a woman which isn't based in biology, have been diagnosed with body dsymorphia and particularly hate my breasts. If I could choose I'd pick man but only in the sense the penis possessor I share a bed with is a man.

I don't consider myself to have a gender identity. My internal sense of self is aggressive, competitive and in most non face to face environments I am often taken for a man...especially online gaming.

paralysedbyinertia · 27/04/2021 15:20

Sorry, just to try again to explain my confusion again. To know that you are something or you are not something, or to feel like something or not feel like something, surely you have to know what that something is?

So what is a man or a woman if it isn't defined in terms of biological sex or gender stereotypes? What is it that you are either identifying with or not identifying with?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/04/2021 15:27

To tell me I must have a gender identity is to try to tell me I must believe in an ideology that I don't believe in.

It is. I'm not a person who feels I actually have the brain of the opposite sex. They are likely to have a psychological condition, like body dysmorphia or anorexia, where their perception of their own body is distressing to them. There is even a condition where the sufferer feels they are made of glass.

So it's their identity which is an issue, I just know I am a human female, and have done since I knew there were two types of humans in one important sense.

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 16:52

If you didn't have a female gender identity, then the statement "you are a woman" would immediately seem wrong to you. It doesn't, so you have a female gender identity.

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 17:00

If you had no gender identity, then "you are a woman" would feel wrong and so would "you are a man".

midgedude · 27/04/2021 17:04

Yo do see that if the word woman means feeling not biology , many of us don't know if we feel like a msn of not ? How do I know?

I only say I am a woman because I was told that biology determines this

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 17:10

@acatcalledjohn

"First off: It's often not obvious which women are infertile or in the menopause."

Or trans.

It's more obvious than an internal bodily function that isn't outwardly visible. Male characteristics developed through puberty don't magically disappear when identifying as trans.

I didn't downplay trans rape. But nice try.

"Male characteristics developed through puberty don't magically disappear when identifying as trans."

Firstly, you are forgetting that there are now quite a lot of people who transitioned young with puberty blockers or got on to hormones before much damage was done. If you met Jazz Jennings without knowing she was trans, you wouldn't have the faintest idea.

Secondly, humans are very variable - you must have seen short men with narrow shoulders, small hands and androgynous voices. When trans women with those characteristics transition, there is often nothing to give them away.

So again, passing trans women also get passed over because of the assumption that they might get pregnant.

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 17:10

@midgedude

Yo do see that if the word woman means feeling not biology , many of us don't know if we feel like a msn of not ? How do I know?

I only say I am a woman because I was told that biology determines this

Can you imagine what it's like to feel like a man?
FrankensteinIsTheMonster · 27/04/2021 17:30

@Shizuku

If you didn't have a female gender identity, then the statement "you are a woman" would immediately seem wrong to you. It doesn't, so you have a female gender identity.
This is just weird 😂 I'd react the same way to "you are a woman" as I would to "you are a human" or "you have blue eyes". To me, it's a value-neutral biological fact. If I disliked the fact I was a woman and didn't want to be one, I'd react the same way to "you are a woman" as I would to "you are overweight" — I don't like it, and it might upset me to think too much about it, but it's a boring old fact. If I reacted to "you are a woman" in the same way as I'd react to "you are a mongoose" i.e. a "that's not factually true" reaction, that would be a bit bizarre and a sign something was very wrong with my perception of reality.
midgedude · 27/04/2021 17:32

My imagination says man and woman are feeling the same as each other once you remove biology