Help explain non binary

[Educationneeded]

Hi, thread was inspired by the other about coming out as GC. I have name changed as I’m not ready to be outed so just incase.

I am GC, although only have expressed my views to close friends and family. My younger sister is due to go up to high school in September and six months ago came out as non binary. We all believe this decision was heavily influenced by TikTok and the wokeness on there.

My parents don’t really understand. My Dad just rolls his eyes but my Mum wants to learn however doesn’t know much on the subject and has asked me to talk to my sister. I have no idea how to even approach the topic with her. Anyone have any guidance? Anything I can tell or show my Mum? I’ve read a lot on trans and women’s right but not much on non binary and don’t really know where to start with this minefield. I guess I’d like to educate myself too.

You have failed to spot the analogy. Let me express it more simply for you:

Being trans and being a migraineur are both conditions you can go to a doctor for. Both are diagnosed on the basis of what the patient tells the doctor they are experiencing, and doctors prescribe medical treatment for both on the basis of what the patient old them.

Does that help?

So is being trans an illness or not? Because I would say a 'condition you can go to a doctor for' which is nice also analogous to a migraine would definitely come under 'illness' but I thought that was transphobic? But if its not an illness then why the talk of doctors and migraines?

Also, if trans is something you go to the doctor for, how is it comparable to being gay, for which no doctors are needed?

@JediGnot

Shizuku

I was hoping you might be able to answer this I posted a couple of pages back? I presume you missed it as opposed to couldn;t answer....

The first issue is that the trans orthodoxy seeks to erase women's sex based rights without discussion, debate or meaningful logic and reasoning. Can someone please explain to me why gender identity rights (clearly a very important thing) are more important than women's sex based rights?

Then you have gender identity. Gender identity is not biological sex. It is not a stereotype (even though trans women NEVER seem to identify as masculine women who never wear make up or dresses, though they do often seem to be as physically and verbally aggressive in a very "man-like" way). It isn't even akin to supporting a football team. Trans women do not seem (to stereotype) to think that their womanhood relates to the fact that they're part of a wider group including all women. It is deeply personal.

So what is it? What is gender identity?

"the trans orthodoxy seeks to erase women's sex based rights without discussion, debate or meaningful logic and reasoning."

All untrue. I am a woman, I want my rights. I am discussing and debating and I am using logic. Scroll up for examples.

"Can someone please explain to me why gender identity rights (clearly a very important thing) are more important than women's sex based rights?"

Flase dichotomy. Trans women are women so women's sex based rights include trans women. Basically, in a world of trans rights, your life continues exactly as before, but 0.3% of the people previously classified as men are classified as women. It's a tiny issue, unless you happen to be trans or a transphobe.

"Gender identity is not biological sex."

It's a biological sex characteristic. Scroll up for Endocrine Society post.

"trans women NEVER seem to identify as masculine women who never wear make up or dresses"

Again, not true. I am trans, but I would never wear heels, even though I'm not tall, I've never had my nails "done", I have short hair, I live in trousers and Doc Martins and I'm a lesbian. Kim Kardashian on the other hand, portrays pretty much all the feminine stereotypes, but of course, she doesn't come up in conversations on stereotypes here because she isn't trans. It's only when a trans woman does the same thing as millions upon millions of women who aren't trans, that suddenly it's an issue.

"they do often seem to be as physically and verbally aggressive in a very "man-like" way)"

Make your mind up.

"Trans women do not seem (to stereotype) to think that their womanhood relates to the fact that they're part of a wider group including all women."

You seriously need to met more trans women. Every trans woman I know is a feminist.

"What is gender identity?"

It's a person's own sense of what sex they are. Scroll up for more info.

@Helleofabore

young transitioners are subject to the same sexism as girls who don't happen to be trans because no one can tell they are trans.

Except every female actually knows that they have been subject to sexist discrimination due to their sexed bodies (those that are formed to produce large gametes, whether they do or not) since birth. This shows just how little you know about the female life experience.

So, no. They don't, except some incredibly rare exceptions where parents have allowed their child to transition very early.

Your blanket statement is quite erroneous.

It's not a blanket statement - it specifically refers to young transitioners, and later transitioners who started with petite physiques.

Transwomen are not women

The equality act makes that quite clear

You have rights as a transgender person
You do not automatically get women's rights

As an example you can be excluded from women's sport according to the equality act

I am sorry if others have led you to believe otherwise , it must make your life very difficult

@Helleofabore

Both are diagnosed on the basis of what the patient tells the doctor they are experiencing, and doctors prescribe medical treatment for both on the basis of what the patient old them.

Reasons for migraine will be explored thoroughly by the doctor though. Probably will send people for tests, MRIs and other scans to find the answer. And those tests will generally support the diagnosis by giving a reason for the migraines.

So, as letsgetready points out. Your analogy has flaws in it.

I am a migraineur. So is my wife. Both of us have spoken to doctors about it in 3 different cities. Neither of us have ever been sent for any kind of scan.

@Helleofabore

"The wrong body" is a phrase some trans people use as a way to express a little of how it feels to be trans. You're not supposed to take it literally.

I guess it is the same thing about 'changing sex' then, isn't it? Not meant to be taken literally.

Yes - trans women don't "change sex" because they were already female. That's the whole reason they had to transition.

And if you are any doubt as to your sex, you can look . You don't need an internal sense , just eyes

It's not a blanket statement - it specifically refers to young transitioners, and later transitioners who started with petite physiques.

And again, females experience sexist discrimination from BIRTH!! You are again in error.

@midgedude

Transwomen are not women

The equality act makes that quite clear

You have rights as a transgender person
You do not automatically get women's rights

As an example you can be excluded from women's sport according to the equality act

I am sorry if others have led you to believe otherwise , it must make your life very difficult

My life is easy - I am in every female space I want to enter and have been for very many years. You were fine.

In fact. In many countries. Females experience sexist discrimination BEFORE birth or at birth.

No one is saying that young trans people may experience discrimination, but we can argue when it starts, and the basis of the discrimination and the effect due to the duration.

I am loving the word migraineur, I have never heard it before

I would have thought that someone suffering from persistent migraines would at least be sent to get their eyes checked or similar?

Yes - trans women don't "change sex" because they were already female. That's the whole reason they had to transition.

If they were already female why did they need to transition?

Is being trans an illness then or what?

@Helleofabore

It's not a blanket statement - it specifically refers to young transitioners, and later transitioners who started with petite physiques.

And again, females experience sexist discrimination from BIRTH!! You are again in error.

Both trans women and women who don't happen to be trans (if only there was a word for that) experience sexism. The amount varies from person to person. A girl who doesn't happen to be trans who is born into a liberal feminist family in Denmark, will arguably suffer less sexism in her life than a passing trans woman in Bangladesh.

All men experience sexism , so what?

@Letsgetreadytocrumble

Yes - trans women don't "change sex" because they were already female. That's the whole reason they had to transition.

If they were already female why did they need to transition?

Is being trans an illness then or what?

Women are generally not comfortable with too many masculine physical characteristics. Ask any woman with excessive facial hair. Most women are also not comfortable being perceived as men by everyone either.

I think the complex reality of being born with a DSD, going through childhood surgery, being raised by a family who have been told to lie to you, and how you might realise, is being massively oversimplified in this thread.

Here is one woman's story of how she only discovered the truth when her GP told her, after she was so old she'd finished university!

differently-normal.com/2020/08/03/tale-of-a-good-gp/

@midgedude

All men experience sexism , so what?

You'll have to ask a man about that.

None. Of. This. Makes. Sense.

Both trans women and women who don't happen to be trans (if only there was a word for that) experience sexism.

You don’t need it the sentence works as trans women and women

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

None. Of. This. Makes. Sense.

That it doesn't sense to you, is not quite the same thing as "it doesn't make sense".

Well, you might need to explain it better if you want to take people with you.

@MarshaBradyo

Both trans women and women who don't happen to be trans (if only there was a word for that) experience sexism.

You don’t need it the sentence works as trans women and women

That would imply trans women were somehow not women. That's not something I believe and you wouldn't want to compel my speech now, would you?

Oh but wait - you are compelling my speech by saying I can't use the word "cis".

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

Well, you might need to explain it better if you want to take people with you.

Maybe you just need to read my posts more slowly and think harder about them.