Pregnant people?

[Trustisamust]

So our local NHS Trust have finally updated their guidance re allowing partners to attend pregnancy scans etc.
They now refer to pregnant people, not pregnant women.
I don't know if I am being unreasonable here but this does not sit comfortably with me?

'Unwomen'. Welcome to Gilead.

This is a very interesting thread which may have some bearing on some of the misinformation being thrown around on this one:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4209628-Stop-mixing-up-sex-and-gender-GPs-told

and this one also:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4213851-Breaking-News-The-Endocrine-Society-Confirms-that-Sex-is-Biological-Dichotomous-Immutable-Determined-at-Conception-and-MUST-NOT-be-Obfuscated-by-Referring-to-Gender

Still no, your definitions. Or, the definitions that some people want them to be. Starting with the changing of language and definitions just under the radar, bit by bit until there's no going back and we are told "that's always been the definition" as if we're stupid, or mad.

Still no answer to my question about why it was decided to leave the language of men alone and focus on changing women's language first. Why women first? Men will push back. Men will not accept it so subjugate the women first.

And not the "gender identity" definition of women. The adult human female women. The definition of woman that most people, in real life, day to day language would recognise.

Why not men? I think you know damn well why.

Yes this is my question. If we are changing it for women, then why not for men?

Well if the dictionary is the only thing that's right then these must also be 100% accurate too! And you must agree also!

Transwoman - a transgender person who has transitioned from male to female.

Right OK. Well I agree with the first part. About trans women being transgender people.
The second about transitioning to female is problematic. Because we need to define 'female' which bring me back to my post. As it is impossible to actually change sex and become the "sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs" I can only conclude that trans women don't exist.

As for your second picture. The cis gender one. OK cool. What about the many many women on here who don't have an innate gender identity? What are we? If you're cis gender that's cool. Lucky you. I know I'm a woman because biology says so. Not because I sometimes wear dresses/make up/knit and bake.

Some posts on this thread make me wonder about the mindset of those who appear to identify as our 'educators'. In particular, I'm wondering about the relevance of these ideas, which I saw tweeted the other day:

Omnipotent control: Seeking to control others’ behavior, speech, and even thoughts; insisting that others should think your thoughts instead of having their own

Devaluation: Denigrating & dismissing certain people & seeing them as having lesser value or importance

twitter.com/JonathanShedler/status/1379119150094712832?s=20

You still haven’t come up with links to the posts asking for you to be banned?

Also, dictionaries only show the definition of words as they are used. They do not set the definition, they respond to the usage of a word.

But here is a medical dictionary. medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/woman

@Trustisamust

Yes this is my question. If we are changing it for women, then why not for men?

I mentioned earlier that it will be happening. However it is an ongoing change. The NHS know the reaction isn't going to go very well, especially with men. So they've done it so changes for young people have been made for a while now. Now changes in the female side are being made, and finally the male side. Then overall everything will have changed.

Yes this is my question. If we are changing it for women, then why not for men?

But the NHS does still talk about women though, in relation to pregnancy and cervical screening. For example here:

www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/trying-for-a-baby/signs-and-symptoms-of-pregnancy/

So they talk about women sometimes and men sometimes. You're saying they use the term women less than they used to, because sometimes they say people instead. Maybe they use men less than they used to too.

Then overall everything will have changed.

And everyone will finally understand that we have always been at war with Eastasia.

So you agree I think that the definitions of the words woman man boy girl are being changed, that they have not always referred to gender.

How do you think people will react to a headline like 'people with vaginas subjected to systematic rape in x country'?

Does that wording work for you?

I think it feels crass and dehumanising personally.

@Erkrie

Seeing as it is only females that get pregnant (even that tiny percentage that don't identify as female) it would be more sensible (and considerably less offensive to women) to simply refer to women ( the overwhelming majority) and transmen.

That's sensible and does not erase/exclude the terms "woman/women".

"People" don't get pregnant, "women and trans men" do. That is fair and inclusive.

People" don't get pregnant, "women and trans men" do. That is fair and inclusive

Yes

'Maybe they use men less than they used to too.'

Nope.

However that's ok as it's been explained that the new approach is being applied to female language first as they are less likely to make a fuss.

Then the changes in language for men will be rolled out.

Thing is there's not the same history. It's not an equal thing.

In reality it makes far less difference to males if the language is altered. So why not start with them...

mentioned earlier that it will be happening. However it is an ongoing change. The NHS know the reaction isn't going to go very well, especially with men. So they've done it so changes for young people have been made for a while now. Now changes in the female side are being made, and finally the male side. Then overall everything will have changed.

Is this what your employer has told you? Sounds like a bit of stonewall capture thinking to me.

Given no one really reads nhs websites or the dictionary as routine how is anyone meant to follow it. I mean if you tell the dr or pharmacist or the teacher etc you are a woman and none of you have the same definition then jta all meaningless isn't it?

How do you ensure everyone knows in order to make sure that all conversations are accurate

However it is an ongoing change. The NHS know the reaction isn't going to go very well, especially with men.

I find this interesting. As most of the men I know couldn't GAF how they are referred to. As my Dad always says "call me what you like as long as it isn't late for dinner."
They can't understand why I'm so upset/angry about the erasure of women's words to describe themselves.
I wonder why that is . Could it possibly have some historical relevance?

The NHS know the reaction isn't going to go very well, especially with men.

So if men got wind of it, it'd probably be scuppered, that tells you a lot doesn't it. Keep it from the men, the ones likely able to can it.

Like I said, under the radar bit by bit until "it's always been this way". We aren't stupid.

And if the reaction isn't going to go very well why on earth is it being pushed? By stealth too. Sneaky, underhand and deceitful, every step of the way, yet still being protected to the hilt.

Fuck that, if the nhs want to start flipping about with definitions and language in the name of inclusiveness there should be a big song and dance about it, in the open, hooray we're being inclusive now, here's what's changing for everyone (men included) and why.

Transparent and clear. Anything less, in my opinion, is just indefensible.

I find the implication that there's a widespread strategy around changing language a bit sinister tbh, rereading.

Start with women's language as they don't make so much fuss (and also aren't taken seriously... Chicken and egg situation)
Target young people to try and embed the new approach. (Use educators etc to do this).
Then once that's done and women have given up and loads of children and young people have been taught the new definitions, start to change men's language.

That's a really wide broad and thought out strategy. And it's being delivered at national level but without any messaging around it being done.
The messaging is not being done because it's obvious that most people will say wtf.

Grass roots situation my arse.

@WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo

However it is an ongoing change. The NHS know the reaction isn't going to go very well, especially with men.

I find this interesting. As most of the men I know couldn't GAF how they are referred to. As my Dad always says "call me what you like as long as it isn't late for dinner."
They can't understand why I'm so upset/angry about the erasure of women's words to describe themselves.
I wonder why that is . Could it possibly have some historical relevance?

A) i agree, the men i know wouldnt give a shit

B) if sugar told me my eyes were blue I’d have to check, so I’ll take the above statement with a pinch of salt

And the question about why the new language is used in some circs but not others, by the same orgs, is never answered.

If eg the BBC are fully behind 'inclusive' language then why did headlines say men more at risk from covid, girls report large numbers of sex offences committed in schools? Etc etc

That's a really wide broad and thought out strategy. And it's being delivered at national level but without any messaging around it being done.

Just because one person (with a particular perspective) tells you that’s how it’s being done doesn’t necessarily make it true.

It would be an interesting exercise to check across men / women / young people’s health services to see if there’s any truth.

@Erkrie

mentioned earlier that it will be happening. However it is an ongoing change. The NHS know the reaction isn't going to go very well, especially with men. So they've done it so changes for young people have been made for a while now. Now changes in the female side are being made, and finally the male side. Then overall everything will have changed.

Is this what your employer has told you? Sounds like a bit of stonewall capture thinking to me.

I’m sorry but I don’t believe that this is what she has been told.

And the literal fact that woman and man are gender terms.

Gender is simply the sex role stereotypes and expectations around a person's sex. Woman is simply an adult human female, like a doe is an adult female rabbit. "Gender terms" have no meaning without the existence of sex.

That's exactly it @NiceGerbil. Strategic. Someone has thought this out well.

Underhand and sinister.