Pregnant people?

[Trustisamust]

So our local NHS Trust have finally updated their guidance re allowing partners to attend pregnancy scans etc.
They now refer to pregnant people, not pregnant women.
I don't know if I am being unreasonable here but this does not sit comfortably with me?

I dunno Rufus, sometimes it gives a good work out.

Deliriumoftheendless

@Deliriumoftheendless

I dunno Rufus, sometimes it gives a good work out.

😀

The list of top secret questions was one of the best laughs I had all weekend.

I'm going to say this very clearly and simply for @ASugarr.

We are not asking you to stop calling yourself "cisgender".

We are asking you to treat other people with a modicum of respect and to stop calling them "cisgender" when they have asked you not to.

If you can manage to use preferred pronouns, simply refraining from making sweeping statements about other people's gender identity should not be that hard.

@Erkrie

Aw A Sugar is back on twitter asking mnhq for conversations around transgender people on MN to be shut down. As it's not fair if they can't call us cisgender. And apparently transgender issues are nothing to do with feminism. So we shouldn't talk about it unless we are actually transgender ourselves. Another attempt to shut down conversation whilst safeguarding fails at every level. I see you were posting here in good faith as ever A sugar.

Mumsnet does seem like the kind of place where women might discuss the use of language such as “pregnant people” in maternity care.

The feminism board seems like a reasonable place to discuss how the use of woman centred and plain English language empowers us in understanding and discussing our medical needs.

I find it really concerning that someone who claims to be a sexual health professional does not understand about biological sex and what woman/man actually means. Some of the PP's answers and ideologies are bizarre.

She pops up on so many threads in FWR and tries to educate people but ultimately says that she is leaving as she doesn't want to offend anyone. Then within a short space of time, she is right back on calling all and sundry cis and spouting drivel about sex/gender.

The problem you've got asugarr is that you have decided that the words man woman boy girl refer to internal gender identity (and always have?).

While most people who speak English understand them to relate to sex as per the definition and what they've always meant.

But that male female are to do with sex.

However your new definition is not agreed.

Some trans people say they were

The sex related to their gender id at birth (always been female).
That certain organs eg penis can be female.
That they are 'cis'.

So your use of the terms is in no way agreed.
Meanwhile the original meaning is still the one understood by almost everyone and is still used even by charities and orgs that use 'inclusive' language elsewhere.

At the vets they have 4 sex based options: FE (female unspayed), FN (female neutered), ME (male uncastrated) MN (male neutered).

Why not have 4 options of M, F, TW and TM? Cervical screening can be targeted at F and TM, prostrate screening at M and TW.

@Whatwouldscullydo

I'm actually quite concerned this is part of a sexual health service. I imagine some of the people they see are extremely vulnerable and/or quite young?

Is 20 questions about their gender identity realky what these people need?

Well given that Asuger is only 25 herself I imagine she is the same age as the people she sees.

@AlwaysTawnyOwl

ASugarr

Again you will have to speak with a sexual health specialist who can give further information on that as I am not permitted to do so. Even though I am anonymous I don't wish to get into trouble for disclosing anything that I wouldn't even if you knew who I was so I can't. But others might have lesser restrictions depending on who they work for. Or even better, you could ask a transgender person to explain it for you

I do not believe this questionnaire exists. You are unable to answer basic questions about what a 'woman gender identity ' is, despite saying you work with people to discover what their gender identity is - hard to do if you can't even describe it.

First, you are not anonymous, your pictures is all over your Twitter feed.

Secondly I frequently attended a sexual health clinic to get the pill. Are no time have I ever had to go through a questionaire to find out what kind of contraception I need.

Only women can have babies. 'Women and transmen' is inclusive whilst not disregarding basic biology. People is too inclusive, in that half of the people it includes can never, ever physically be pregnant.

@EdgeOfACoin

The list of top secret questions was one of the best laughs I had all weekend.

Me too! They don't exist do they?

You can be a man and be female. You can be a woman and be male. It's not that hard to understand. Sex doesn't equal gender.

What batshittery is this? It looks to me as though ASugarr is tying themselves up in knots here.

It seems to me that if 'woman' does not in fact mean 'adult human female,' then we are going to have to come up with a new term for it. I'm going to suggest Woman with a capital W for adult human females. It's subtly different from woman (which apparently no longer actually means what most Women have considered it means for millennia) but not too far from the original word, and most of us Women know what it means. It's important to be able to differential between male women and female Women for health, education, sex equality and so many other reasons.

So we shouldn't talk about it unless we are actually transgender ourselves.

Which ASugar isn’t.

Me too! They don't exist do they?

If they do exist someone.ought to tell the experts.. I think if a definitive criteria that doesn't involve stereotypes or suggesting autism can be cured by transition exists , good money might be paid for it. So far no one can agree on what a gender ID is or how it can be DX . Some clarity would be appreciated all round.

All this gubbins from ASugar and I've still not seemed to have a response to my question.

Why, when the decision was made to start changing all the language in the nhs, was it decided that they'd start with the women because the men wouldn't like it? What made them think the women would? Why not say well tough shit men? Why is it women stamped on and shoved over first?

I can hazard a guess, railroad over the women cause no one gives a shit about them, if you started with the men the pushback would be so hard and fast your head would spin and any language change gone for good.

This is the sort of thing that superstraight came from. Go after the women, no one cares, they're bigots anyway. Go after men, superstraight is born, explodes and people start paying attention.

You don't want people to pay attention until it's too late, so you leave the men for last.

Which ASugar isn’t.

Indeed.

I wonder what’s the definition of these words

Arse

Elbow

Let's change the question slightly:

A 16-year-old boy is confused about his sexuality and goes to you for guidance. What sort of questions would you ask him to help him figure it out?

You are attending a birth and the baby has just been born. What do you take into consideration when determining the sex?

Are these questions impossible to answer? Could someone on this board provide a brief overview of the sorts of questions that might be asked? Or are these questions so top secret that they can only be uttered behind closed doors, away from the prying eyes of Mumsnet?

@NiceGerbil

Doona fair enough

This is from NHS

'If you are under 40 and have regular sex without using contraception, there is an 8 in 10 chance you will get pregnant within 1 year.'

Soooo... Is that 8 in 10 or 4 in 10 if you're female?

Or 0% chance if you are not biological female. I am astounded at the NHS stating that.

Surely they are using the figures from biological women whether they are trans men or women.

Understood and you can request to be called a woman however we should respect transgender men and the choices they make.
Or, and here's a novel idea, we could continue to use the term 'woman' and the very small number of pregnant transmen could ask their HCP to refer to them as a 'pregnant person'. After all the vast majority of pregnant people do identity as a woman.

People are aware they have a prostate or cervix.
Not the women I used to teach in my ESOL class. They didn't know the English words for most body parts. Hence attending our classes (local, church run, women only). Some of them learnt enough English that they progressed to an actual English course at the local college. Others learnt enough that they could book a GP appointment/ask where the apples were in the supermarket. Most will never have enough English to understand that they are a "person with a cervix" but all could tell you they were a woman.

@EdgeOfACoin

Let's change the question slightly:

A 16-year-old boy is confused about his sexuality and goes to you for guidance. What sort of questions would you ask him to help him figure it out?

You are attending a birth and the baby has just been born. What do you take into consideration when determining the sex?

Are these questions impossible to answer? Could someone on this board provide a brief overview of the sorts of questions that might be asked? Or are these questions so top secret that they can only be uttered behind closed doors, away from the prying eyes of Mumsnet?

It seems the Nursing and Midwifery Council are having trouble answering how they “assign sex at birth” - they have not replied to this FOI within the required timeframe.

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/information_on_assigning_sex_at#incoming-1754322

Mind boggling

“You are attending a birth and the baby has just been born. What do you take into consideration when determining the sex?“

I believe you hold a golden ring suspended on a human hair over the baby and whichever way it spins tells you if it’s a boy or a girl.

FACT.

SCIENCE.

Can we please not reference asugarr other social media?

Please?

There is enough on this thread to discuss and they are a lone voice posting with a lot of people making arguments back.

MN is anonymous and I like that. If I accidentally said who I was on other media I would not like people going and looking.

This poster is very very young and I think it would be wise to bear that in mind.

Please please?

(I mean no reason you should listen to me but I really think it's massively the right thing to do).