Ireland will no longer be providing single sex toilets in primary and secondary schools!!!

[XXSex]

I am LIVID!!! New technical guidance has been released.
www.education.ie/en/School-Design/Technical-Guidance-Documents/Current-Technical-Guidance/sdg-02-06-sanitary-facilities-april-2021-.pdf

All mixed sex. Hand basin outside the WC (WAH your bloody hands in front of boys). Doors down to the floor (any one else see an issue in a mixed sex school with mixed sex toilets with this set up)

What the were the department thinking?!!!

What gender someone has has zero implications on their toilet needs of their sexed bodies.

For those needs the privacy and dignity if single sex facilities is vital.

Given the problems we have of funding in schools and period poverty wasting money on special bins fir all the toilets as opposed to half and risking the stuff being thrown about by the boys seems daft

In prison, everyone is fundamentally a criminal and many could have a violent past. This is not the case in schools - so I was unsure what exactly @MichelleofzeResistance was getting at.

All boys in schools are nice then? Did you miss Everyone's Invited?

many GC threads perpetuate this idea that many trans women are just transitioning so they can sexually assault women in toilets etc.

No, many GC threads continue to point out the reality that there is no possible way to tell the difference between a male person genuinely transitioning and a male person who would like to access female people in female facilities in a state of undress to carry out a sexual assault. To admit one means you have to admit and expose females to the risk of the other. And to do so means that you regard the risk and possible outcomes to female people as a class being worth it for the benefit of the genuinely transitioned male people. Which is sexist to put it mildly, and something female people definitely have the right to be talking about and questioning, since they weren't born to be cannon fodder and have rights too.

I'm afraid the downsides for female people have to be faced up to.

And the whole 'you're just fussing that all male people are rapists' exaggeration wholly misses a key point:

To include male people in female facilities and give them their preferred choice from all the available facilities for their wellbeing and to value their sense of self involves excluding some female people from being able to access any facilities at all and reduces their inclusion in society and access to public life .

Huge great enormous issue right there if you care about equality, inclusion, kindness, social justice and diversity.

Women want their private spaces so they can carry out sex based bodily functions with dignity and in privacy. Safety is only part of the consideration.

many GC threads perpetuate this idea that many trans women are just transitioning so they can sexually assault women in toilets etc.

Transwomen want to use women’s space not for reasons of safety, because then they would be happy to have a third space that accommodated both sexes and all genders, but so that they can be validated in their adopted gender. That is the

@malloo

In prison, everyone is fundamentally a criminal and many could have a violent past. This is not the case in schools - so I was unsure what exactly @MichelleofzeResistance was getting at.

All boys in schools are nice then? Did you miss Everyone's Invited?

I didn’t quite clearly say that. I said not all boys in schools are violent criminals.

@MichelleofzeResistance

And the whole 'you're just fussing that all male people are rapists' exaggeration wholly misses a key point:

To include male people in female facilities and give them their preferred choice from all the available facilities for their wellbeing and to value their sense of self involves excluding some female people from being able to access any facilities at all and reduces their inclusion in society and access to public life .

Huge great enormous issue right there if you care about equality, inclusion, kindness, social justice and diversity.

Well I’d assume in this situation and this “male person” identifies as female and likewise could be facing safety issues in male toilets considering they identity as female.

Can you give more information on how exactly this person attending toilets that match their gender identity excludes some females accessing facilities? I’m obviously not aware of these issues in as much depth as you are.

Surely they will just do what women are suloosed to fo?

Call the police?

Male violence is up to men/males to solve. Women and girls are not support humans for males

@Notoriouslynotnotious

Women want their private spaces so they can carry out sex based bodily functions with dignity and in privacy. Safety is only part of the consideration.

many GC threads perpetuate this idea that many trans women are just transitioning so they can sexually assault women in toilets etc.

Transwomen want to use women’s space not for reasons of safety, because then they would be happy to have a third space that accommodated both sexes and all genders, but so that they can be validated in their adopted gender. That is the

I’m unsure what exactly your point is, apologies maybe its me that’s not getting it. I didn’t say this was the view of every GC person, but that I’ve seen many perpetuate this view.

I wholeheartedly agree that trans women should use female toilets if single sex toilets are the facilities in order to be “validated in their adopted gender.”

@Whatwouldscullydo

Surely they will just do what women are suloosed to fo?

Call the police?

Male violence is up to men/males to solve. Women and girls are not support humans for males

I don’t know what this in response to, therefore very unsure on what your point is.

You said there are safety issues with males who identify as women using men's loos.

I'm.wonsering why that's no on males to solve. Male sure their spaces are welcoming to all males regardless of their presentation.

Why is it a problem.women have to solve?

@WarriorN

It's surprising as generally in new buildings / architecture the trend is to give full closed cubicles off main corridors with basins inside etc. But perhaps that's U.K. and as a result of the EA.

A local high school has toilets all like that and less bullying and graffiti was the main thing a staff member commented on. (had trans squiggles on the doors but I could see that these were relatively safe and in such a communal area.) we have them too for staff and our building was built at the same time.

I'd say letters to papers is a good way forward and also raising all the recent reports on sexual assaults.

Also, girls using moon cups; how embarrassing to wash them in public

I honestly don't think many school age girls use mooncups!

@Whatwouldscullydo

You will see however from the links posted elsewhere in the thread we have a massive problem with sexual assults and sexual harassment in state akd private schools.

Also normalisation of no privacy is not a good lesson to be teaching children.

Sharing with classmates they have none for years is hugely different to being alone in a train station after work in the event and having to share that space with a large adult male stranger.

There's a word we sadly cannot use when speaking about the process in normalisation of dangerous situations that begins as children that they take throughout being adults

But we are discussing schools here. That’s what the whole thread is about...

Is a single sex toilet really the only place children and teenagers get privacy? I would disagree this erodes privacy. It’s not like they are being expected to do their business in a trough in the middle of the corridor.

@Whatwouldscullydo

You said there are safety issues with males who identify as women using men's loos.

I'm.wonsering why that's no on males to solve. Male sure their spaces are welcoming to all males regardless of their presentation.

Why is it a problem.women have to solve?

Why are women having to solve it?

They are simply sharing their single sexed space with another female.

Can I just clarify, is a trans man who resembles what you’d traditionally consider a “man” to look, walks into the female toilets you wouldn’t blink an eye and would see that as acceptable? If trans women should be using male toilets, it must work both ways.

I wholeheartedly agree that trans women should use female toilets if single sex toilets are the facilities in order to be “validated in their adopted gender.

I’m also not sure what point you are trying to make here either .

To me it is not up to women to give up their dignity and privacy to carry out sex based biological functions to validate someone else’s identity.

What positives does mixed sec spaces give?

Forget the lay out or how nice and shiny it is which would obviously be preferable to crumbling ceilings with no loo roll.

But specifically with children at school, what benefit does a mixed sex area have? Because all you have realky sited is lay outs. Which cab he applied to single.sex too. So there's nothing special about the area besides extra supervision and lay out that wouldn't solve the problems in single.sex areas too.

So, what benefits are there to teaching children that sharing with eachother even when half naked vulnerable etc ? What lesson does that teach?

Fully enclosed loos also present their own issues. In the event of fainting , allergic reaction, asthma attack, collapse, epileptic fit, rape and miscarriage, you cannot see what's happening.. nor cab you climb over ir under the door if it won't open due to the location of the person inside.

Trans men require tbe sanitary dispenser and bin like other women do so yes they of course shoukd be welcome in womens loos.

If they choose to use the mens and men have a problem with that theh that's fir men to sort. We aren't everyones mother we don't have to solve everyones problems whilst still having to try and sort out our own

Certainly in my experience, girls have reported a huge reduction in intimidating behaviour from the same sex and bullying in the toilets at school. 204 girls (in a school with 310 girls) came forward to actively campaign for them to stay that way as opposed to changing them back to single sex toilets. Oddly from the other side, 95 boys campaigned and only 14 girls to change them back. So they clearly do have benefits to girls.

@jul26m - where is this from?

And I know that this has changed tack slightly and we’re discussing trans woman and trans men. That is a corollary of this situation. This is NOT the main point of this thread as many other posters have raised above. This is about dignity and privacy for girls and boys.

@XXSex

Certainly in my experience, girls have reported a huge reduction in intimidating behaviour from the same sex and bullying in the toilets at school. 204 girls (in a school with 310 girls) came forward to actively campaign for them to stay that way as opposed to changing them back to single sex toilets. Oddly from the other side, 95 boys campaigned and only 14 girls to change them back. So they clearly do have benefits to girls.

@jul26m - where is this from?

This is from the school in which I work in.

@jul26m where is the evidence Public for this?

@Notoriouslynotnotious

I wholeheartedly agree that trans women should use female toilets if single sex toilets are the facilities in order to be “validated in their adopted gender.

I’m also not sure what point you are trying to make here either .

To me it is not up to women to give up their dignity and privacy to carry out sex based biological functions to validate someone else’s identity.

So can I confirm that you’d also expect trans men prior to sexual reassignment, someone who looks as you may suspect a “typical” man to look but has a vagina, to use the female toilets? As per their biological functions.

[quote XXSex]@jul26m where is the evidence Public for this?[/quote]
It isn’t public. This was a campaign within the school. This information would not be shared publicly along with the school name. I said this was my experience. If there was public information alongside I would have shared it.

Im sure my kids school in uk has one set toilets like this and it wasn't just girls that kicked off , boys said they felt uncomfortable too for various reasons
Difference being this was just one set and they still have separate sets also so I didn't have an issue as it covered all this way
My ds never uses school loos anyway if he can help it as says they are also grim

I didn’t quite clearly say that. I said not all boys in schools are violent criminals.

Absolutely, I agree. But what recent publicity on this issue has shown is that clearly some boys do sexually harass, assault and rape girls.

So I'm interested to know if you think a transboy would be safe in an all boys school? Because I don't think they would be and this gets to the heart of why single sex spaces are important. When it comes to keeping girls and transboys safe it is sex not gender that must be prioritised.