Ireland will no longer be providing single sex toilets in primary and secondary schools!!!

[XXSex]

I am LIVID!!! New technical guidance has been released.
www.education.ie/en/School-Design/Technical-Guidance-Documents/Current-Technical-Guidance/sdg-02-06-sanitary-facilities-april-2021-.pdf

All mixed sex. Hand basin outside the WC (WAH your bloody hands in front of boys). Doors down to the floor (any one else see an issue in a mixed sex school with mixed sex toilets with this set up)

What the were the department thinking?!!!

On the one side @jul26m has one school, evidence, no sample size, no published evidence.

On the other side we have multiple newspapers, multiple papers written, multiple newspapers and court papers.

You’ll have to excuse me @jul26m but the weight of evidence of thin on the ground on your side!

@Whatwouldscullydo

What positives does mixed sec spaces give?

Forget the lay out or how nice and shiny it is which would obviously be preferable to crumbling ceilings with no loo roll.

But specifically with children at school, what benefit does a mixed sex area have? Because all you have realky sited is lay outs. Which cab he applied to single.sex too. So there's nothing special about the area besides extra supervision and lay out that wouldn't solve the problems in single.sex areas too.

So, what benefits are there to teaching children that sharing with eachother even when half naked vulnerable etc ? What lesson does that teach?

Fully enclosed loos also present their own issues. In the event of fainting , allergic reaction, asthma attack, collapse, epileptic fit, rape and miscarriage, you cannot see what's happening.. nor cab you climb over ir under the door if it won't open due to the location of the person inside.

Are you aware many public buildings these days in single sex toilets still have fully enclosed cubicles with no gap above or below?

I’m not sure why they would be half naked in the open plan mixed space. They would be using the toilet behind the closed door. Then emerging to wash their hands.

Staff supervision cannot be applied to single sex toilets behind a closed door as it can to an open plan mixed sex toilet space.

@XXSex

On the one side *@jul26m* has one school, evidence, no sample size, no published evidence.

On the other side we have multiple newspapers, multiple papers written, multiple newspapers and court papers.

You’ll have to excuse me @jul26m but the weight of evidence of thin on the ground on your side!

Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t realise this was a competition.

But I assume that even if I had managed to provide you published evidence of this, you’d still have argued it down so I’m really unsure why you continued to question me other than to be pedantic and patronising.

It’s also worth noting that newspapers, papers, more newspapers and court papers do not put across everyone’s opinion. It puts across the opinion and actions or events of those that shout the loudest.

So excuse me, if I don’t believe that your many newspapers put across the view of every female faced with mixed sex toilets.

@malloo

I didn’t quite clearly say that. I said not all boys in schools are violent criminals.

Absolutely, I agree. But what recent publicity on this issue has shown is that clearly some boys do sexually harass, assault and rape girls.

So I'm interested to know if you think a transboy would be safe in an all boys school? Because I don't think they would be and this gets to the heart of why single sex spaces are important. When it comes to keeping girls and transboys safe it is sex not gender that must be prioritised.

It would depend on a number of factors, such as the values of that school and ultimately, if that boy would like to attend. If they would, they have clearly weighed up the pros and cons and made their decision accordingly. They shouldn’t have to attend if they don’t believe they would be safe, as of course mixed sex schools are available, but I’m not sure I, someone who has never attended an all boys school or had the mindset of a trans boy, could make this call.

@jul26m

So excuse me, if I don’t believe that your many newspapers put across the view of every female faced with mixed sex toilets.

This is not about your feelings on the matter and who shares these feelings. This is about the facts.

Here are the facts -
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmwomeq/91/91.pdf

And these trump your feelings.

If you’d like a more up to date one - this is currently draft from2020 consult.education.gov.uk/safeguarding-in-schools-team/keeping-children-safe-in-education-2020/supporting_documents/Sexual%20violence%20and%20sexual%20harassment%202020.pdf

Staff supervision cannot be applied to single sex toilets behind a closed door as it can to an open plan mixed sex toilet space

That's lay out

Many schools have open plan single sex.

So again. What are the benefits

OK, that's interesting jul26m, thanks for your response.

@Zandathepanda

Having rescued 2 people from behind toilet doors having seizures, there’s going to be a lot going on behind the doors people can’t see. There is a gap underneath doors for a reason.

I was thinking the same thing. Someone could be being raped behind that door and no one would know.

It would depend on a number of factors, such as the values of that school and ultimately, if that boy would like to attend. If they would, they have clearly weighed up the pros and cons and made their decision accordingly. They shouldn’t have to attend if they don’t believe they would be safe, as of course mixed sex schools are available, but I’m not sure I, someone who has never attended an all boys school or had the mindset of a trans boy, could make this call.

That kind of reads as if it will be the trans boys fault if they anything happens to them. That they have thought through the pros and cons already and clearly this is a possibility.
Boys are more violent than girls. Fact.

Substitute that sentence with the woman knew the alleyway was darker to walk home. But it was quicker. She weighed up the pros and cons.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Staff supervision cannot be applied to single sex toilets behind a closed door as it can to an open plan mixed sex toilet space

That's lay out

Many schools have open plan single sex.

So again. What are the benefits

I don’t really get what the point is.

One of the main points raised to me is that open plan was bad because girls have to wash their bloody period hands in full view of everyone - this would be the case in open plan single sex toilets too and boys could still see this as it’s not behind closed doors.

Oh yeah we forgot didn't we
Naice well behaved western boys don't hurt anyone and if they did it was probably the girls fault being there when he was.

The difference is in.skmgle sex spaces you can have the gaps at the bottom that would allow it to he seen that someone needed help.. And you have the first line of defence against assault in tact. You would know a boy entering that space was up to no good by the very act of going in there..

As opposed to just having to hope that the boy in the mixed sex area isn't up to no good and if he was u can't see two sets of feet under the door and so ut all goes unnoticed.

@XXSex

It would depend on a number of factors, such as the values of that school and ultimately, if that boy would like to attend. If they would, they have clearly weighed up the pros and cons and made their decision accordingly. They shouldn’t have to attend if they don’t believe they would be safe, as of course mixed sex schools are available, but I’m not sure I, someone who has never attended an all boys school or had the mindset of a trans boy, could make this call.

That kind of reads as if it will be the trans boys fault if they anything happens to them. That they have thought through the pros and cons already and clearly this is a possibility.
Boys are more violent than girls. Fact.

Substitute that sentence with the woman knew the alleyway was darker to walk home. But it was quicker. She weighed up the pros and cons.

Words in my mouth. That’s not what I’m saying. If they attend and there is a safety issue than that is the fault of the perpetrator and the perpetrator should face the harshest punishment. I would also say the same about the woman and the alleyway. Again, not my opinion whichever she chooses. If it was me, I wouldn’t take the alleyway whilst I would continue to advocate for women to feel safer in spaces by advocating for attempts to reducing violence.

So is the solution simply to guard against any potential violence from men? Rather than seek to change the way some men are brought up and their mindset surrounding violence.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Oh yeah we forgot didn't we Naice well behaved western boys don't hurt anyone and if they did it was probably the girls fault being there when he was.

The difference is in.skmgle sex spaces you can have the gaps at the bottom that would allow it to he seen that someone needed help.. And you have the first line of defence against assault in tact. You would know a boy entering that space was up to no good by the very act of going in there..

As opposed to just having to hope that the boy in the mixed sex area isn't up to no good and if he was u can't see two sets of feet under the door and so ut all goes unnoticed.

It’s you that keeps bringing up “western boys”. Odd.

Many single sex toilets are also floor to ceiling.... and many wouldn’t see the two sets of feet if she’s the only person in the single sex toilets that are behind a closed door rather than open plan.

So is the solution simply to guard against any potential violence from men?
Yes. Until men stop being violent we absolutely should guard against the potential of violence. That’s basic Safeguarding!

Rather than seek to change the way some men are brought up and their mindset surrounding violence.
This should be done. Absolutely. But until it’s resolved point above stands.

Some single sex toilets are floor to ceiling - and some are not. That some are floor to ceiling doesn't make the problem of the non floor to ceiling ones go away.

Some girls have no problem with mixed sex toilets - and as you can see in this thread, some do. As do some women.

What are we going to do to find solutions that work for everyone? That's all that really matters here. As obvious for this thread, mixed sex toilets do not work for all girls.

Well you don't seem to think this country has enough of an issue with gender based violence to protect our girls over hurting the feelings of males.

What has to happen to girls in this country if a rape a day in schools isn't enough to say no to males sharing spaces with girls when they are vulnerable?

What's What's acceptable level before we can say no?

@XXSex

So is the solution simply to guard against any potential violence from men? Yes. Until men stop being violent we absolutely should guard against the potential of violence. That’s basic Safeguarding!

Rather than seek to change the way some men are brought up and their mindset surrounding violence.
This should be done. Absolutely. But until it’s resolved point above stands.

Well if this is truly the case, you could essentially avoid going anywhere. There will be a news article of gender based violence taking place in a supermarket for example. As a woman, you’d avoid pubs, nightclubs, parks etc. I don’t see the answer being that you remove anyone would could face violence from a specific situation or place. Yes take reasonable precautions such as not going down an alley. Nevertheless wouldn’t be the woman’s fault of course if she did encounter violence in any of these locations. But if it was truly the answer to guard against any potential violence from men, women wouldn’t go anywhere.

Well I’d assume in this situation and this “male person” identifies as female and likewise could be facing safety issues in male toilets considering they identity as female.

Two separate issues here.

First: They may identify as women but they are male, not female as no one is able to change sex. Female is a biological reality and not an identity, and sex remains relevant. While some people base perceptions of others on gender expression, others do not share that belief and perceive based on sex. Obviously mutual tolerance is necessary.

Second: TW may well not be safe in male spaces, and absolutely no one should have to be vulnerable in a space where their privacy and dignity is affected and they feel unsafe. However this does not automatically mean that the only solution is that they use the female single sex space. Third spaces would meet the need without removing single sex spaces from female people. There are many other male people unsafe in male spaces: female spaces and femalehood isn't the refuge for anyone not safe in male spaces. Those spaces are to meet the needs of female people.

Can you give more information on how exactly this person attending toilets that match their gender identity excludes some females accessing facilities? I’m obviously not aware of these issues in as much depth as you are.

Women whose faith and culture means they cannot access mixed sex spaces regardless of how someone identifies, women with disabilities such as Autism, women with a history of trauma and sexual assault, women whose dignity, privacy and comfort to partially undress (as women have to) is too affected to be able to use mixed sex spaces for situations where they are undressed and vulnerable.

As I said above, absolutely no one should have to be vulnerable in a space where their privacy and dignity is affected and they feel unsafe. Solutions have to be found that don't involve telling those women they either prioritise the needs of the male person or lose access to any space. It cannot be only male needs and feelings that are valued.

Solutions have to work for everyone.

Don’t be disingenuous. Guarding against violence doesn’t imply not shirking from society. You’re obfuscating.

Again this is basic Safeguarding we’re discussing.

So you understand why single sex spaces exist in the first place?

We have seen what happens when we don't, reflected in other countries where girls don't attend school as a result.

We are now very aware of the epidemic of sexual violence and harassment

We've had the me too movement

And this very recent school scandal in the news.

So either you don't believe it

Or you don't think it matters

Or you think.its not enough to exclude males . Which of course means you must have some idea of what you would consider a level at which we can reconsider?

@Whatwouldscullydo

Well you don't seem to think this country has enough of an issue with gender based violence to protect our girls over hurting the feelings of males.

What has to happen to girls in this country if a rape a day in schools isn't enough to say no to males sharing spaces with girls when they are vulnerable?

What's What's acceptable level before we can say no?

What I do know, is from my experience (which I am well aware is not going to be the experience of all before anyone jumps at this) highlighted in previous posts is that females on the whole think mixed sex toilets are fine.

I’ve never mentioned anything about “hurting the feelings of males” or anything even similar...

Probably worth noting that those publications with those statistics are England based whereas I am based in Scotland. In the many schools I’ve worked in over the years, there has not been one rape case having taken place on school property. Not that this has never happened in scotland, I’m sure it probably has. However it could be that we experience less gender based violence amongst teenagers even just being over the border.

@XXSex

Don’t be disingenuous. Guarding against violence doesn’t imply not shirking from society. You’re obfuscating.

Again this is basic Safeguarding we’re discussing.

Well if girls in school are such risk of violence at all times from these perpetually violent boys, maybe single sex schools is the only option in the case of safeguarding.

Or that it's just not reported.

Your comment about weighing up the pros and cons is a prime example of why people dont bother. It wasn't that long ago where part of the defence of a rape case ( now bear in mind WhatsApp messages basically admitted it had happened) was " well look at the underwear she was wearing.

Yes you heard right her underwear was held up in court to defend her rapist.

We are teaching kids that they have ti ignore their discomfort. That they are not e entitled to privacy dignity or safety and then we blame them for getting themselves into " dodgy situations"

Girls can't win. And they know it. They get to sit I'm class with their rapist instead.