Ireland will no longer be providing single sex toilets in primary and secondary schools!!!

[XXSex]

I am LIVID!!! New technical guidance has been released.
www.education.ie/en/School-Design/Technical-Guidance-Documents/Current-Technical-Guidance/sdg-02-06-sanitary-facilities-april-2021-.pdf

All mixed sex. Hand basin outside the WC (WAH your bloody hands in front of boys). Doors down to the floor (any one else see an issue in a mixed sex school with mixed sex toilets with this set up)

What the were the department thinking?!!!

@CrazyNeighbour

.... also he has a meeting at the school tomorrow, promised to ask about the issues from the school and said he would get back to me.

Keep us posted!

Summarising the issues as outlined in the thread (if I’ve missed any please point them out)

Ultimately this change in policy risks excluding some female people from being able to access any facilities at all, reduces their inclusion in society and access to public life and potentially severely interrupts their education.

• there is an exemption allowed for in the Equal Status Act that allows for single sex spaces
• no urinals will slow down boys toileting
• boys are less likely to lift the seat resulting in messier and smellier toilets
• query over whether boys will close the door when peeing
• opening period products causes girls embarrassment even in the presence of other girls
• girls personal and private bodily functions can be monitored by their male peers and indeed a few posters provided anecdotal evidence that boys knock ferociously on the doors when period products are opened
• some girls need to wash blood from clothing and or hands and this is made impossible by sharing facilities with boys
• poorly placed Sanitary bin
• having to buy from the period products dispenser in full view of the boys
• Muslim or Jewish communities won’t be able to use these facilities
• Because of the toilets NOT having gaps, more will be happening inside those toilets (drugs, sex, assault, sexual assault)
• Because of the toilets NOT having gaps out won’t be possible to see if someone has fainted inside
• passive supervision of toilet areas unlikely as teachers have enough to be doing
• a teacher can’t question a boy I n the girls bathroom as they have a right to be within 1m of them
• this change appears to have happened without parents being consulted
• it’s not known of an Equality Impact Assessment was carried out
• the submission to the UK Parliament on sexual harassment in schools
• there will be an increase in costs for all cubicles rather than urinals and cubicles
• risk that both boys and girls might hold in their urine because of embarrassment
• risk that girls might not attend school during their period

• not clear that teachers or principals were consulted about the passive supervision aspect, the risks inherent in the set-up or any other short-comings they might see
• not clear that students will restrict themselves to their (carefully colour-coded) cubicles
• not clear that teachers or principals were consulted about the passive supervision aspect, the risks inherent in the set-up or any other short-comings they might see
• not clear that students will restrict themselves to their (carefully colour-coded) cubicles
• passive supervision not possible if children use the toilets during classes (requests cannot be unreasonably refused)
• since these facilities will be used by outside parties outside of school hours it will be easier to install voyeur equipment due to easier access (and teenage schoolboys might also place these items)
• anecdotal evidence that schools which were built like this reverted back to single sex a few years later (due to some of the points raised above

And to provide balance

• anecdotal evidence from one school that both girls and boys want mixed sex toilets
• mixed sex toilets would meet diversity and inclusion for non binary children

3 of the protected characteristics under the Equal Status Act will be negatively affected

• disability
• gender
• religion

If an Equality Impact Assessment has been done then I presume that all of these points have arisen and ignored.

I had a meeting with my daughter's Head Teacher just before lockdown. I wanted to make sure none of this trans mind-fuc*ery would be inflicted on my DC. HT looked at me like I was mad (I don't blame her!), and said she had heard nothing about any of it. I left her with a Transgender Trend brochure. This was an independent school, but I'd recommend getting a meeting with your kids' Headteacher, and communicating to them the issues - in a human voice - before all the text-based, over-composed, skewed 'literature' comes there way.

@therestissilence

I had a meeting with my daughter's Head Teacher just before lockdown. I wanted to make sure none of this trans mind-fuc*ery would be inflicted on my DC. HT looked at me like I was mad (I don't blame her!), and said she had heard nothing about any of it. I left her with a Transgender Trend brochure. This was an independent school, but I'd recommend getting a meeting with your kids' Headteacher, and communicating to them the issues - in a human voice - before all the text-based, over-composed, skewed 'literature' comes there way.

'their' way.

@therestissilence

I had a meeting with my daughter's Head Teacher just before lockdown. I wanted to make sure none of this trans mind-fuc*ery would be inflicted on my DC. HT looked at me like I was mad (I don't blame her!), and said she had heard nothing about any of it. I left her with a Transgender Trend brochure. This was an independent school, but I'd recommend getting a meeting with your kids' Headteacher, and communicating to them the issues - in a human voice - before all the text-based, over-composed, skewed 'literature' comes there way.

That would be great but not an option in Ireland. All new schools will be built with mixed sex toilets. We don’t have independent schools here. Even the fee paying schools are partially funded by the state.

Sorry to be so negative. Well done for being pro active! Honestly that is a very good thing to do.

@ASugarr

Glasgow have been trailing it. Plus schools in england have opened up their bathrooms so one side is males and the other is females, but are within the same room. And so far no issues have come up.

Yes, our local schools have moved to mixed-sex loos.

Loads of girls now avoid using the loos at school because they hate sharing with the boys. Including the younger primary school girls. The seats are all covered in pee.

The secondary girls avoid drinking water during the day so they don't need to use them. They don't want to use or get tampons and pads in mixed-sex loos. Girls are trying to skip school when they have their period because they are petrified of ending up in that position and are in constant fear during their period of leaking blood, due to trying to avoid changing pads and tampons until they get home, and because boys would see them trying to clean up the blood after.

It's an unmitigated disaster. For the girls. But I doubt their discomfort is a factor.

Ireland really are jumping into this with both feet. The countries embracing this are an odd mixture. It would be interesting to analyse what they have in common, if anything.

I'm a teacher in a school in SE that has this new layout and to be honest I have not heard many complaints from girls. I have had a few issues from girls wanting fix their hijab and not finding a space to do so but even they have found ways around it, although not really ideal for them I admit.

It is widely open and there are staff monitoring the corridor during break and lunches, from my experience as I was on duty in those areas. Credit to the kids they do just walk in and out and boys wash their hands because they are seen and can see the teacher hovering around. Also, the fact that it is so open actually has helped behaviour. It has also meant the area is typically cleaner than say, boys toilets. So overall standards are higher.

I hated the idea at the beginning but it hasn't created many problems. What I don't like, which is what we also have in the building is a unisex toilet space where the main doors are closed; a few cubicles, and shared washing space- I can't know what is happening in there. Those are for 6th formers.

piddocktrumperiness you say you haven’t heard many complaints from girls, aside from the fact this implies there are some, has anyone actually outright asked the pupils how they feel, preferably so they can answer anonymously? Other people have said that they know of pupils who have, like you say the girls needing to fix their hijabs, found ways around it, such as going to the house of a pupil who lives nearby and not drinking to avoid needing to go. I imagine there are a lot of pupils who wouldn’t speak up voluntarily or even if asked, if it’s not anonymously.

It has also meant the area is typically cleaner than say, boys toilets. So overall standards are higher.

So, nicer for the boys but less nice for the girls. Great.

Jul26m I assume, like Sugar, you are also in favour of having toilets segregated by sex, for the female children who need or prefer them, and having some better-designed mixed-sex options available in addition?

Also interested in why you think Scottish boys might be less inclined towards violence and sexual violence than English boys?

I'm a teacher in a school in SE that has this new layout and to be honest I have not heard many complaints from girls.

Nobody ever heard complaints from girls, or women. It never seems to be at the right frequency.

hears*

@HipTightOnions

It has also meant the area is typically cleaner than say, boys toilets. So overall standards are higher.

So, nicer for the boys but less nice for the girls. Great.

I am gobsmacked actually at how people can write things like this and not even register how blatant their disregard for girls' needs and comfort is.

It is not okay to further disadvantage the oppressed class (girls) in order to further benefit boys.

And so far no issues have come up

This sort of thing is said all the time, and it's nonsense. Girls modify their own behaviour, because they have absolutely no hope of modifying the school's behaviour, and this is classified as "no issues have come up".

Never mind the girls who just don't go to those schools, because their parents won't allow them in a school which only has mixed-sex facilities.

@ArcheryAnnie

And so far no issues have come up

This sort of thing is said all the time, and it's nonsense. Girls modify their own behaviour, because they have absolutely no hope of modifying the school's behaviour, and this is classified as "no issues have come up".

Never mind the girls who just don't go to those schools, because their parents won't allow them in a school which only has mixed-sex facilities.

yes this in spades!!!

everyoneinvited has hundreds of stories from girls basically saying 'we didnt bother telling any of the teachers about the harrassment/assault/rape because they wouldnt listen to us and even if they did, the boy wouldnt be punished anyway'

Girls learn very very quickly that its much easier to just get girls to put up and shut up than it is to deal with bad behaviour form boys. They are trained as support humans from a very young age

I do wonder how many of the schools who say no girls complained really mean 'we didnt ask the girls what they thought in private'

I’ve just written to the department and to my TD. Has anyone else? My TD said that he wasn’t aware that such a change was made. He’s looking into it and is going to get back to me.

Make some noise Mná na hEireann - get onto your TDs and write to the department. If we don’t do that how will they know that we’re unhappy?

@AnyOldPrion

Ireland really are jumping into this with both feet. The countries embracing this are an odd mixture. It would be interesting to analyse what they have in common, if anything.

Misogyny.

World wide then Lord? My horror at this has been made even worse by the fact that the UN and many other charities recognise that safety for women is improved with good toilet facilities so why would the developed world decide to take steps backwards? Perhaps we've just climbed too high on the equality ladder and need to be brought to heel. So, mixed sex schools to benefit boys (they are better behaved apparently) and mixed sex loos so they learn better habits. Misogyny is definitely the right word

How soon before teachers stop policing? They'll say that there aren't any problems so we don't need to continue. I really, really want to scream.
We have to be shouting loud, this is too important and when the awful consequences start happening, something else will be blamed - probably women

So angry about this.

Girls toilets, boys toilets, unisex toilets, accesible toilets - win win for all.

Anyone who doesn't see a problem is blind. I hate shared space toilet - as an adult I don't feel comfortable washing my bloody hands or moon cup in front of men. I feel unsafe in those toilets too. Sexual assault happens everywhere.

Girls will suffer so much. I remember the days of embarrassment, needing to rush to the toilets with heavy periods at 11. I would have hated to have boys in there listening to my every move, rustle etc.

@XXSex

I’ve just written to the department and to my TD. Has anyone else? My TD said that he wasn’t aware that such a change was made. He’s looking into it and is going to get back to me.

Make some noise Mná na hEireann - get onto your TDs and write to the department. If we don’t do that how will they know that we’re unhappy?

XXSex okay I am going to do the same this weekend.