Ireland will no longer be providing single sex toilets in primary and secondary schools!!!

[XXSex]

I am LIVID!!! New technical guidance has been released.
www.education.ie/en/School-Design/Technical-Guidance-Documents/Current-Technical-Guidance/sdg-02-06-sanitary-facilities-april-2021-.pdf

All mixed sex. Hand basin outside the WC (WAH your bloody hands in front of boys). Doors down to the floor (any one else see an issue in a mixed sex school with mixed sex toilets with this set up)

What the were the department thinking?!!!

I suspect if you insist on exaggerating and making clear your lack of interest or respect for middle ground and what anyone else is saying then there's limited point in bothering to continue the conversation.

The Everyone's Invited website has had thousands of reports of rape and sexual harassment and one overriding fact was that those girls did not bother to report because they knew nothing would be done as was evidenced by the few who did report and nothing was done, so I wouldn't be too cocky if I were you that Scottish Schools are such perfect places.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Or that it's just not reported.

Your comment about weighing up the pros and cons is a prime example of why people dont bother. It wasn't that long ago where part of the defence of a rape case ( now bear in mind WhatsApp messages basically admitted it had happened) was " well look at the underwear she was wearing.

Yes you heard right her underwear was held up in court to defend her rapist.

We are teaching kids that they have ti ignore their discomfort. That they are not e entitled to privacy dignity or safety and then we blame them for getting themselves into " dodgy situations"

Girls can't win. And they know it. They get to sit I'm class with their rapist instead.

No, my pros and cons comment has been massively taken out of context and every thing else I have said about advocating for safety for women and changing the violent mindset of men has been ignored by you to suit your own agenda. Surprise surprise.

@RedDogsBeg

The Everyone's Invited website has had thousands of reports of rape and sexual harassment and one overriding fact was that those girls did not bother to report because they knew nothing would be done as was evidenced by the few who did report and nothing was done, so I wouldn't be too cocky if I were you that Scottish Schools are such perfect places.

I don’t think what I said was cocky. I suggested it had potentially LESS gender based violence than English schools. Which could be the case. It also may not. Never said they were perfect.

Man you GC folks just love putting words in folks mouths and cherry picking what to argue against to suit your own agenda. Highly amusing.

@MichelleofzeResistance

I suspect if you insist on exaggerating and making clear your lack of interest or respect for middle ground and what anyone else is saying then there's limited point in bothering to continue the conversation.

If this was in response to me. That’s interesting as no other responses are seeking a middle ground either. They are seeking single sex toilets as all men are rapists.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Or that it's just not reported.

Your comment about weighing up the pros and cons is a prime example of why people dont bother. It wasn't that long ago where part of the defence of a rape case ( now bear in mind WhatsApp messages basically admitted it had happened) was " well look at the underwear she was wearing.

Yes you heard right her underwear was held up in court to defend her rapist.

We are teaching kids that they have ti ignore their discomfort. That they are not e entitled to privacy dignity or safety and then we blame them for getting themselves into " dodgy situations"

Girls can't win. And they know it. They get to sit I'm class with their rapist instead.

This lack of reporting is a problem in that. How would we know if any solutions had actually had an impact? What do you suggest with regard to that?

I dunno, take steps to not put them in this situation in the first place?

Take responsibility as adults to make the risk assessments they cant comprehend yet.

Stop removing layers of safeguarding

So one of the big pro arguments for these designs seems to be how easy they are to supervise. Is the suggestion that teachers/other staff will be standing outside at break times? Weren't teachers in Ireland arguing a few years ago that supervising kids playing in the yard was outside their responsibility. Has that changed? I'm not sure i would take well to being told I needed to sit/stand outside the jacks for lunchtime to make sure there was no trouble. Or are the kids expected to supervise themselves?

This seems like another policy announced from the top down, probably by people who don't actually spend time in schools.

Children and teenagers of both sexes deserve access to single sex spaces, for a myriad of reasons. It can be argued around in circles but the reality is that children deserve to have access to a space that, while it may not ever be completely private, they can predict to some degree who they will encounter and how those people will act.

For the people who say, I know lots of women and girls who wouldn't mind sharing their toilets. Great, good for you and for them. But women and girls who don't, and those boys who don't, have the right to be accommodated too. Let a third space be available for those who are happy to use it.

And yeah, I can just imagine the staff meeting where the rota for standing outside the toilets is announced. As if teachers don't have enough to be dealing with.

Lurky and Yadidaye... if you look at the consultation document that XXSex linked above, the proposal appears not to relate to teachers actively supervising the toilet area. Rather, that the open plan design allows for "passive supervision".

I dont know what the definition of "passive supervision" is, but I suspect it doesn't mean that a teacher is assigned to stand at the toilets- more that the prospect of a teacher walking past may be deterrent enough to stop bullying.

Now, having been a teenage girl in a mixed school, with teenage boys (the majority of whom grew out of the offensive "lets be crude while we wade through the hormonal surges stage of life" and became decent men) I wouldn't rely on passive or active supervision in the loos.

Upthread, teachers have commented on having their toilet door thumped by boys, who think that "periods" are somehow funny or weird.
Boys wont be deterred from that behaviour in the short term.
But, while they're learning, it's not fair for girls to have to deal with their own body changes and the immaturity of males at the same time.

So, let girls have some dignity and privacy in single sex places.
Trans girls and boys can go to a third gender neutral place (not the disabled loos).

@FionaMacCool

Lurky and Yadidaye... if you look at the consultation document that XXSex linked above, the proposal appears not to relate to teachers actively supervising the toilet area. Rather, that the open plan design allows for "passive supervision".

I dont know what the definition of "passive supervision" is, but I suspect it doesn't mean that a teacher is assigned to stand at the toilets- more that the prospect of a teacher walking past may be deterrent enough to stop bullying.

Now, having been a teenage girl in a mixed school, with teenage boys (the majority of whom grew out of the offensive "lets be crude while we wade through the hormonal surges stage of life" and became decent men) I wouldn't rely on passive or active supervision in the loos.

Upthread, teachers have commented on having their toilet door thumped by boys, who think that "periods" are somehow funny or weird.
Boys wont be deterred from that behaviour in the short term.
But, while they're learning, it's not fair for girls to have to deal with their own body changes and the immaturity of males at the same time.

So, let girls have some dignity and privacy in single sex places.
Trans girls and boys can go to a third gender neutral place (not the disabled loos).

Very sensible

So "passive supervision" likely means little to none in reality. Even if the open plan layout does prevent physical bullying or sexual assault, there will still be plenty of opportunity for the kind of behaviours other people mentioned above like banging on doors, verbal bullying, sexual comments etc. Sounds like a lovely situation to throw a 12 or 13 year child into.

But hey, when they grow up, we will have a generation of women learning from a young age that they have no right to boundaries based on their sex. I would imagine fighting for sex based rights will be harder for a generation that doesn't kmow what they're missing.

Yes, Lurky, in practice I suspect, that's what would happen.
And I wouldn't blame teachers for that.
Ideally, the situation would be that there is single sex provision, and boys are just not supposed to be in that space, so can be challenged if so.

In reality, open plan girls loo will probably become that space that boys run through as a dare.

Dont forget that the advised plans are for new build Primary also.
Can you imagine the stress of being an 11 year old in 5th Class, trying to deal with periods, and having the boys teasing (as they will).

Well if this is truly the case, you could essentially avoid going anywhere. There will be a news article of gender based violence taking place in a supermarket for example. As a woman, you’d avoid pubs, nightclubs, parks etc. I don’t see the answer being that you remove anyone would could face violence from a specific situation or place. Yes take reasonable precautions such as not going down an alley. Nevertheless wouldn’t be the woman’s fault of course if she did encounter violence in any of these locations. But if it was truly the answer to guard against any potential violence from men, women wouldn’t go anywhere

Women take steps to minimise risk all the time in all those situations. Sometimes we avoid places and areas because they don't feel safe. We don't have the option of avoiding toilets. Just because we can't sex segregate ALL areas doesn't mean we shouldn't sex segregate those we can. Bathrooms and changing rooms carry higher risk due to layout and functions than your average supermarket.

Yes, 3times, well said.

And, of course, in the context of safeguarding children, the risk/behaviour is turned upside down.
I have to submit evidence for Garda clearance repeatedly as I work with children. Am I high risk? (Middle aged mother with no history of abuse or additions)....No I am clearly not.

But, because children are vulnerable, all risks must be covered as much as possible. Hence I happily go through the Garda vetting procedures.
As does anybody working with children.
It's not failsafe, but it's there to protect the less powerful.

Nobody says "oh well, abusers are going to find ways to get at children no matter what we do (true), so lets just hope for the best".

That is one of my concerns about single sex toilets...the potential risk of an abusive person manipulating the situation to abuse children.
Any level of risk must be highlighted and mitigated.

I don’t think the open plan layout will reduce bullying because groups will congregate round the sinks, especially if they have mirrors.

Because of the toilets NOT having gaps, more will be happening inside those toilets. Drug taking definately and assaults potentially?

If over one rape is being reported inside school premises each day, where in schools are these and other assaults happening?

This is the kind of detail the education bodies and school designers should be looking at. Before.

Summarising the issues as outlined in the thread (if I’ve missed any please point them out)

1. Mixed sex spaces l

• there is an exemption allowed for in the Equal Status Act that allows for single sex spaces
• no urinals will slow down boys toileting
• boys are less likely to lift the seat resulting in messier toilets
• query over whether boys will close the door when peeing
• opening period products causes girls embarrassment even in the presence of other girls
• girls personal and private bodily functions can be monitored by their male peers and indeed a few posters provided anecdotal evidence that boys knock ferociously on the doors when period products are opened
• some girls need to wash blood from clothing and or hands and this is made impossible by sharing facilities with boys
• poorly placed Sanitary bin
• having to buy from the period products dispenser in full view of the boys
• Muslim or Jewish communities won’t be able to use these facilities
• Because of the toilets NOT having gaps, more will be happening inside those toilets (drugs, sex, assault, sexual assault)
• Because of the toilets NOT having gaps out won’t be possible to see if someone has fainted inside
• passive supervision of toilet areas unlikely as teachers have enough to be doing
• a teacher can’t question a boy I n the girls bathroom as they have a right to be within 1m of them
• this change appears to have happened without parents being consulted
• it’s not known of an Equality Impact Assessment was carried out
• the submission to the UK Parliament on sexual harassment in schools
• there will be an increase in costs for all cubicles rather than urinals and cubicles
• risk that both boys and girls might hold in their urine because of embarrassment
• risk that girls might not attend school during their period

-

And to provide balance

• anecdotal evidence from one school that both girls and boys want mixed sex toilets

Diarrhoea

Sorry to bring the conversation to this, but it's embarrassing enough in same sex toilets. Couldn't imagine the mortification for a child to be caught short and have to clean up with members of the opposite sex.

And to go one step further: Cleaning the diarrhoea (and wee) is easier with a gap at the bottom of the door - another reason gaps are there in public toilets.

I'd add:

• not clear that teachers or principals were consulted about the passive supervision aspect, the risks inherent in the set-up or any other short-comings they might see
• not clear that students will restrict themselves to their (carefully colour-coded) cubicles
• for Irish primary schools it is a retrograde step from recent builds where toilets were built off each classroom allowing teachers to be sure no children are wandering the corridors, bullying, being bullied or damaging the toilets while on a trip to the toilet

Summarising the issues as outlined in the thread (if I’ve missed any please point them out)

1. Mixed sex spaces l

• there is an exemption allowed for in the Equal Status Act that allows for single sex spaces
• no urinals will slow down boys toileting
• boys are less likely to lift the seat resulting in messier toilets
• query over whether boys will close the door when peeing
• opening period products causes girls embarrassment even in the presence of other girls
• girls personal and private bodily functions can be monitored by their male peers and indeed a few posters provided anecdotal evidence that boys knock ferociously on the doors when period products are opened
• some girls need to wash blood from clothing and or hands and this is made impossible by sharing facilities with boys
• poorly placed Sanitary bin
• having to buy from the period products dispenser in full view of the boys
• Muslim or Jewish communities won’t be able to use these facilities
• Because of the toilets NOT having gaps, more will be happening inside those toilets (drugs, sex, assault, sexual assault)
• Because of the toilets NOT having gaps out won’t be possible to see if someone has fainted inside
• passive supervision of toilet areas unlikely as teachers have enough to be doing
• a teacher can’t question a boy I n the girls bathroom as they have a right to be within 1m of them
• this change appears to have happened without parents being consulted
• it’s not known of an Equality Impact Assessment was carried out
• the submission to the UK Parliament on sexual harassment in schools
• there will be an increase in costs for all cubicles rather than urinals and cubicles
• risk that both boys and girls might hold in their urine because of embarrassment
• risk that girls might not attend school during their period
• embarrassment during diarrhoea
• ease of cleaning (difficult to clean behind the door) so risk of toilets becoming dirty
• risk that of the boys don’t close the door that there might inadvertently “flash”
• risk that children with learning disabilities will leave the door open. More embarrassing in front of (and in direct view given the set up) the opposite sex. Might lead to teasing and bullying
• lots of media clippings and findings that mixed sex spaces are less safe for women and girls
• more expensive to provide a to the floor door
• trapping of odours within the cubicle more likely
• Safeguarding
• UNESCO fight for single sex spaces for girls in schools in the developing world. Why odds out different for Ireland?
• girls not drinking enough at school to avoid having to use the toilet - bad for their health but also dangerous during sport or hot weather or over heated classrooms

And to provide balance

• anecdotal evidence from one school that both girls and boys want mixed sex toilets
• mixed sex toilets would meet diversity and inclusion for non binary children

Summarising the issues as outlined in the thread (if I’ve missed any please point them out)

• there is an exemption allowed for in the Equal Status Act that allows for single sex spaces
• no urinals will slow down boys toileting
• boys are less likely to lift the seat resulting in messier toilets
• query over whether boys will close the door when peeing
• opening period products causes girls embarrassment even in the presence of other girls
• girls personal and private bodily functions can be monitored by their male peers and indeed a few posters provided anecdotal evidence that boys knock ferociously on the doors when period products are opened
• some girls need to wash blood from clothing and or hands and this is made impossible by sharing facilities with boys
• poorly placed Sanitary bin
• having to buy from the period products dispenser in full view of the boys
• Muslim or Jewish communities won’t be able to use these facilities
• Because of the toilets NOT having gaps, more will be happening inside those toilets (drugs, sex, assault, sexual assault)
• Because of the toilets NOT having gaps out won’t be possible to see if someone has fainted inside
• passive supervision of toilet areas unlikely as teachers have enough to be doing
• a teacher can’t question a boy I n the girls bathroom as they have a right to be within 1m of them
• this change appears to have happened without parents being consulted
• it’s not known of an Equality Impact Assessment was carried out
• the submission to the UK Parliament on sexual harassment in schools
• there will be an increase in costs for all cubicles rather than urinals and cubicles
• risk that both boys and girls might hold in their urine because of embarrassment
• risk that girls might not attend school during their period

• not clear that teachers or principals were consulted about the passive supervision aspect, the risks inherent in the set-up or any other short-comings they might see
• not clear that students will restrict themselves to their (carefully colour-coded) cubicles
• not clear that teachers or principals were consulted about the passive supervision aspect, the risks inherent in the set-up or any other short-comings they might see
• not clear that students will restrict themselves to their (carefully colour-coded) cubicles
• passive supervision not possible off children use the toilets during classes

And to provide balance

• anecdotal evidence from one school that both girls and boys want mixed sex toilets

@3timeslucky

I'd add:

• not clear that teachers or principals were consulted about the passive supervision aspect, the risks inherent in the set-up or any other short-comings they might see
• not clear that students will restrict themselves to their (carefully colour-coded) cubicles
• for Irish primary schools it is a retrograde step from recent builds where toilets were built off each classroom allowing teachers to be sure no children are wandering the corridors, bullying, being bullied or damaging the toilets while on a trip to the toilet

Thanks. Didn’t add the third bullet point as the en suite toilets are still a feature in primary schools - section 6 of the document. However I did use the contents in a slightly changed bullet point.

• since these facilities will be used by outside parties outside of school hours it will be easier to install voyeur equipment due to easier access
• anecdotal evidence that schools which were built like this reverted back to single sex a few years later (due to some of the points raised above

WHO ON EARTH THOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD IDEA