Dr Debbie Hayton interview

[ChristinaXYZ]

In case you haven't seen it.

“I worry that trans people are being used in a political campaign to compromise women’s spaces”

There is someone on another thread saying that what they have posted is factual and can be proved and that mumsnet will lose all credibility if they delete factual posts

Oh how i laughed!!!

Everywhere but FWR mate...

@Justhadathought

Remind me again why women are supporting Hayton in this

In seeing the bigger, longer range picture it is possible to recognise how small steps can contribute to the process of pushing back against this ideology, which has emboldened so many to give legitimacy to their private fantasies/urges and desires.

Is this 'newyearnewname' a replacement for 'angry attack kittens' by any chance?

I missed this earlier

Its a mugs game trying to play spot the poster, especially as angryattackkittens hasnt been on mumsnet for yonks

I’m sure she’d tell you to get a grip

This from the NASUWT guidance seems quite narrow, regarding supporting children whose parents transition:
"My dad transitioned when I was ten. My school was very supportive during this time. They provided counselling on what would change and what would stay the same. It was reassuring to know that it was completely normal and almost everything would stay the same within the family or in my dad. (I’m sure the 50% of DNA that we share didn’t change too!)"

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

There is someone on another thread saying that what they have posted is factual and can be proved and that mumsnet will lose all credibility if they delete factual posts

Oh how i laughed!!!

Everywhere but FWR mate...

R0wantrees seems to be getting an awful lot of deletions for her factual posts at the moment. I wonder who doesn’t want people reading her information?

And WTF re this about "Karen Jones"
"it will become clear that she is so widely accepted as female in that unit that location in the main prison will follow. I think that such acceptance will pretty generally apply in the main prison, also, although there will probably always be a small number of prisoners who will choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict. If this patient is able to cope with protracted close proximity women of that sort I would judge her able to cope with the less prolonged, more avoidable, travails of the civilian world."
Is that saying what I think it's saying, that they thought it was acceptable to kind of 'test run' Karen Jones against women prisoners, to see how Karen Jones 'coped'?

@StellaAndCrow

And WTF re this about "Karen Jones" "it will become clear that she is so widely accepted as female in that unit that location in the main prison will follow. I think that such acceptance will pretty generally apply in the main prison, also, although there will probably always be a small number of prisoners who will choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict. If this patient is able to cope with protracted close proximity women of that sort I would judge her able to cope with the less prolonged, more avoidable, travails of the civilian world." Is that saying what I think it's saying, that they thought it was acceptable to kind of 'test run' Karen Jones against women prisoners, to see how Karen Jones 'coped'?

That's how it reads to me.

R0wantrees seems to be getting an awful lot of deletions for her factual posts at the moment. I wonder who doesn’t want people reading her information?

Shes been targeted before

Its a bit pathetic to be honest, targetting a poster like this

Especially when r0wan only deals in facts

Its a bit like ‘play the ball not the man’ when one team have taken the ball off the pitch so they can have a clear run at the player

That's how it reads to me.

The same Karen Jones who was invited to speak at the House of Lords. You’d think they were talking about a victim, not someone who was convicted of manslaughter and attempted rape.

www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/karen-jones

I do think MNHQ need to have a long hard look at themselves when they're repeatedly deleting R0's factual posts.

current relevant thread:
'ILGA Feminist Declaration & Stonewall. Lowering the age of consent to 10?'
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4215949-ILGA-Feminist-Declaration-Stonewall-Lowering-the-age-of-consent-to-10

I don't really understand how AGP can be described as a sexual orientation, as above "an inwardly directed sexual orientation". I would have thought it was better described as a paraphilia, or a fetish - have I misunderstood?

I think anyone who’s visited transwidowsvoices.org or childrenoftransitioners.org
would question whether it’s ‘victimless’, as has been said in the past.

EmpressLesbianInChair wrote, Mon 13-May-19
"...thank you for writing this piece, Debbie, but I am going to ask again - isn't it important for gender-cricital transwomen to be avoiding the use of female-only spaces, both to lead by example and so as not to give less well-intentioned males an excuse by setting a precedent?"
Does Debbie still use female-only spaces? If so, why? As well as Empress's points, Debbie surely knows how much distress their presence can cause to women. And it's not as if they'd be "outed" by using the men's. So why? Is it a power play?

My reason for wondering is that the ongoing very obvious avoidance of the question about the NASUWT guidance seems like a power play to me.

@StellaAndCrow

I don't really understand how AGP can be described as a sexual orientation, as above "an inwardly directed sexual orientation". I would have thought it was better described as a paraphilia, or a fetish - have I misunderstood?

You haven't misunderstood. This is said in order to minimise it.

Trans teachers are subject to the same safeguarding processes and checks as everyone else!

I haven’t seen anyone here suggesting they shouldn’t be. Yet posters are as usual trying to draw transgender and child abuse all into the same discourse.

So is it ok if a teacher changes their name by deedpoll to Mx MassiveCock? Would that be considered ok? Would children be forced to use this name?

Oh you are utterly preposterous. You’re losing the plot.

@R0wantrees

'I do actually think it's brave to talk openly about agp, very few people are willing to admit this and I certainly would not want to share intimate details like this.

transcript from Triggernometry Podcast

(extract)
DH "Right well I'm a teacher. I've been teaching for 25 years. I live in Birmingham. I teach, I teach in the West Midlands. I probably wouldn't be sitting here though if i hadn't transitioned 10 years ago" (continues)

KK "and what led you to transition?

DH "Mental health, a mental health crisis really. I'd had issues with
my, well issues with my gender. I've sometimes described it but don't try and push me on what that actually means. But I knew I had psychological issues with this from when I was about three years old. But, managed to, as many other people do. You manage to keep it in check, get on with life, grow up you know, get married, have kids" (continues)

Dr Katie Alcock (Senior lecturer, Developmental Psychology Lancaster University) article on language acquisition and child development.

May 2019 'Young children, reality, sex and gender'
(extract)
"Well, this research has been going on for a loooong time. All the studies I’m going to talk about are really robust — well replicated — this means that lots of researchers have found the same thing time and time again. We have known about some related aspects of children’s thinking since the 1920s or earlier and some of the main, older studies in this area are from the 1960s. This is not a flash in the pan. (continues)

Nevertheless, it takes children some time to work out both whether they themselves are a girl or a boy, and that both they and others cannot change sex. Working out which they are themselves happens earlier, and is based in all the studies that have been done on physical appearance and stereotypes. Have a look at what James, aged 3, has to say on the matter:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BFDgO_y9cc&t=62s

James is firm that having short hair makes him a boy, and that it also makes other people (and dolls) into boys. My own child aged four was convinced a teenager we knew must be a boy because she had short hair." (continues)

Making generalisations is a very useful skill for a baby or child — if they couldn’t make generalisations, they would never be able to work out that a new cat they saw was in fact a cat, or a new apple was just as good to eat as the last one, or a new car is likely also to go places. Children can work out at a very young age that there are men and women, boys and girls, in the world — it’s probably quite useful for them to work this out in the general scheme of things.

So when they see all the girls at nursery wearing pink and having long hair, well, that’s what girls do! And they also realise, from what people are saying, and from how their parents dress them, what toys they are given, and what toys other children who look like them (same clothes, same hair) what they are supposed to like and do based on what sex they are (continues)

So, based on the idea that girls have long hair and boys have short hair, James is also age-perfect in thinking that when appearance changes, sex changes too. Until the age of about 7 (yes, 7 — in some children it’s older) children think that when something changes its appearance, its underlying reality changes too. This doesn’t just apply to sex, it applies to pretty much everything. (continues)

But of course children have their own preferences and influences and they like doing what they like doing even if that happens to be something their parents think isn’t “right” for their sex. It’s called personality. So, even when children realise that boys are “supposed” to like cars and wear jeans and have short hair, they may not actually want to do that if they are a boy.

Children know what they like. When society and the world tells them that the things they like are those that boys like — but they have been told in words that they are a girl — well, that’s easy. They already know that having short hair makes you into a boy. They know that playing with cars makes you into a boy. So it’s easy! Boy all the way. And their version of the world, at their age, means that changing sex is totally possible." (continues)
medium.com/@katieja/young-children-reality-sex-and-gender-3421f4f165f

I find it very concerning that so many teachers are either unaware or choose to ignore such well established facts about child development and language acquisition. Francis Foster is also a qualified teacher and has worked in both primary and secondary education.

NB reposted from Wed 07-Apr-21 15:43 with agreed edit to remove a distracting sentence.

I've just become aware that the link above to Dr Katie Alcock's article is no longer working (removed by/from Medium?)

Published in full by Transgender Trend:
www.transgendertrend.com/young-children/

@Anovaneway

Trans teachers are subject to the same safeguarding processes and checks as everyone else!

I haven’t seen anyone here suggesting they shouldn’t be. Yet posters are as usual trying to draw transgender and child abuse all into the same discourse.

So is it ok if a teacher changes their name by deedpoll to Mx MassiveCock? Would that be considered ok? Would children be forced to use this name?

Oh you are utterly preposterous. You’re losing the plot.

Have you actually read the thread? Did you get to the bit where it talks about teachers not born female are allowed to use the female toilets even if they are only presenting as a woman on a temporary basis?

Why do we have single sex facilities? Can you see any possible issues with this approach?

I think the link to Katie Alcock's piece was screwed up by MN formatting, trying to bold the "@katieja" , it's still there.

medium.com/@katieja/young-children-reality-sex-and-gender-3421f4f165f1

...yeah, did it again, those asterisks are bogus.

Trans teachers are subject to the same safeguarding processes and checks as everyone else!

September 2019 thread discussing potential loophole with GRC and DBS check.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3690840-Reply-from-Home-Office-re-DBS-and-GRC

OP Ali1cedowntherabbithole wrote:
"I contacted my MP after the questions raised on the thread linked below. I asked for clarification about identity checks for DBS could be verified if someone has a GRC and is living with a new identity.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3653715-Challenor-showing-off-their-new-birth-certificate.

MP didn't bother to reply but I have received the following "correspondence reply" from the Home Office.

Thank you for your email xxx to the Minister for Children and Families about the Disclosure Barring Service ( DBS and your concerns on the effectiveness of the checks that are made on people who are transgender , which has been passed to the Home Office for a reply.

One of the important roles of the DBS is to help employers make safer recruitment deci-sions to ensure that people who want to work with children and vulnerable adults do not have a previous record of causing them harm. An essential part of this public protection role is to check the identity of the applicant through the verification of the documents they use to prove their identity. DBS checks are therefore dependent upon being able to con-firm and verify all names used by an individual when checking whether they might pose a threat to others, for example whether they have been convicted of a serious offence.

For these very important reasons, applicants for a DBS check are asked to produce doc-uments from a primary set (a current valid passport issued by any country, UK photo card driving licence, UK biometric residence permit or a UK birth certificate issued within 12 months of birth) together with other trusted Government issued documents or finan-cial/social history documents. This includes ensuring that the applicant provides details of all addresses where they have lived in the last five years. The DBS guidance has been carefully constructed to ensure that the process is as secure as possible and is kept under review.

Our policies must adhere to the important protections afforded to transgender people, such as protecting an individual’s gender history, which are enshrined in the Gender Recogni-tion Act 2004.

Being able to validate an identity is a crucial part of ensuring that a criminal record disclo-sure is sent to the right person, rather than to someone who has adopted a false identity in order to hide a criminal past. The Government believes that the above process provides the right balance of maintaining high standards of identity checking, whilst at the same time, not being so restrictive that it prevents legitimate applicants from completing the DBS identity checking process.

I hope this is helpful in explaining the position.

So basically "an essential part of this public protection role is to check the identity of the applicant through the verification of the documents they use to prove their identity" unless they have a GRC and then it doesn't matter.

There is no safeguarding."

Have you actually read the thread? Did you get to the bit where it talks about teachers not born female are allowed to use the female toilets even if they are only presenting as a woman on a temporary basis?

Why do we have single sex facilities? Can you see any possible issues with this approach?

OK. Yes sorry. The dual role/ toilet aspect mentioned towards the end of the guidance? Just read that bit. I’d only read where it specified toilet change with permanent transition. I’m not sure that justifies the ridiculous name change analogy or constant references to child abuse, but yes, I see what you mean.

To suggest that a male member of teaching staff who announces his intention to permanently transition into a "female role" should not be obliged to follow sex-based policies within the school is indeed to mean they are not subject to the same safeguarding processes as other teachers.