Gender Criticals vandalise LGBT centre and deface memorial to trans woman.

[Shizuku]

This is happening in Spain.

twitter.com/KatyMontgomerie/status/1378633917482332163

twitter.com/EcosyTinta/status/1368272074972729349

Proper hard!

You needing an explanation of why it's threatening is cis privilege. To any trans person, it's obvious.

I accept that some trans people might find it "threatening" in some sense; but it's still a case of fairly polite and completely reasonable political rhetoric.

If people find such mild rhetoric "threatening", then what are you supposed to do?

There is a difference between people finding something "threatening" and it being morally blameworthy speech. It's mild rhetoric that people have every right to use, regardless of whether it offends some people or they find it "threatening" in some limited sort of sense. You aren't automatically blameworthy for everyone's possible negative reaction to your speech.

(Note: I'm only defending the content of the rhetoric, and not if it's painted somewhere it shouldn't be.)

We are constantly being told that gender is not sex and that trans people don't really believe that they physically change sex , so how on earth is " sex≠ gender threatening and or offensive.

Vandalism of a memorial is not on. So glad it came off so easily ... must have been very quick off the mark there, eh!

I am glad OP is against violence. I hope OP spends a great deal of time reprimanding the many people who threaten and abuse trans people who are vocal about knowing they cannot change sex, and are very clear that they are the sex they were born still and don’t try the semantic tricks of stating they were always the opposite sex or conveniently stating that if they ar women, they must surely be female too.

And at the same time, reprimand those prominent activists who when they are heavily involved in sexually harassing women on twitter earlier this years and mocking female toilet habits and toilet noises. Wasn’t that on international women’s day just been? Mmm! Those are just the things they have done so far in 2021.

Oh. No. That’s right. OP keeps linking that prominent activist up as support for their arguments across different threads.

Shizuku: "This thread is a masterclass in whataboutery."

Let me quote Wikipedia's definition:

"Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

First thing I would note, is that you didn't actually give an argument in the opening post. I don't see that anyone "failed to refute" your argument, or tried to "divert from" your argument, when you didn't actually give an argument in the first place!

Can you identify the fallacy here when you didn't give a real argument to start with?

Rather, I think people were left to guess about your intentions; and they guessed you were using this story to bash on the GC ideological position or movement. But then in that context, where is the fallacy in pointing out the behaviour of the other side?

If there was a widespread violence problem in the GC movement, then sure, pointing out the behaviour of the other side (even if equally bad or worse) would be a diversion in a way.

But I don't see a problem in pointing out that this is a rare incident on the GC side, condemning the rare incident, and also pointing out the worse behaviour of the other side. That seems reasonable in a context where we are left to guess about your exact intentions, but that they are presumably hostile.

Not all use of "tu quoque" amounts to a fallacy. It depends on the context. If you're trying to discredit the GC position just because someone did something bad in its name, then "tu quoque" is a fair response here.

I use these slogans all the time..not threatening to anyone , but bloody angry about what is happening in Spain , in the Uk and more or less everywhere else. Spanish feminists really don’t want self identity laws to be introduced, and Madrid is the centre for much of the protests. And yes I think it’s likely that lesbians really don’t want what might have been a good place for them to be turned into yet another mixed space with no room for lesbians. I think it is ok to express these emotions in a protest and the suffragettes did way more vandalism, acid on cricket pitches, fires in post boxes etc. We are not going to submit to the ideology that denies biology and women our sex protected rights. a bit of graffiti is really not such a big deal.

Sounds like a fair whack of cultural imperialism to me - I've lived in Spain, political graffiti was par for the course, although my favourite was the cars with the speakers on the roof going round spouting out fairly incomprehensible propaganda about a local election/some other political issue/sometimes football

I was also surprised when visiting Spain and Portugal about the amount of political graffiti in all sorts of places, including ones that seemed inappropriate to me.

Interestingly this article in the Spanish newspaper El Pais links the graffiti on Cristina Ortiz’s memorial with two other acts of vandalism of feminist murals/memorials for International Women’s Day, most likely carried out by supporters of the far right party, Vox:

“Feminist mural in Madrid vandalized on International Women’s Day

The faces of the 15 women depicted in the mural were covered with black spray paint. The perpetrators, who called themselves Revolutio, left a note describing feminism as “one of the bêtes noires of our era.”
...
This was the third act of vandalism registered in just a few hours: on Sunday, another feminist mural in the nearby city of Alcalá de Henares was damaged after being inaugurated just two days earlier. Mayor Javier Rodríguez Palacios, of the PSOE, called the attack “an assault against all of society.” A plaque honoring trans icon Cristina Ortiz, known as La Veneno, in the Parque del Oeste in Madrid, was also spray-painted with a message against the government’s draft law on trans rights.”

english.elpais.com/society/2021-03-08/feminist-mural-in-madrid-vandalized-on-international-womens-day.html

@Zinco

Shizuku: "This thread is a masterclass in whataboutery."

Let me quote Wikipedia's definition:

"Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

First thing I would note, is that you didn't actually give an argument in the opening post. I don't see that anyone "failed to refute" your argument, or tried to "divert from" your argument, when you didn't actually give an argument in the first place!

Can you identify the fallacy here when you didn't give a real argument to start with?

Rather, I think people were left to guess about your intentions; and they guessed you were using this story to bash on the GC ideological position or movement. But then in that context, where is the fallacy in pointing out the behaviour of the other side?

If there was a widespread violence problem in the GC movement, then sure, pointing out the behaviour of the other side (even if equally bad or worse) would be a diversion in a way.

But I don't see a problem in pointing out that this is a rare incident on the GC side, condemning the rare incident, and also pointing out the worse behaviour of the other side. That seems reasonable in a context where we are left to guess about your exact intentions, but that they are presumably hostile.

Not all use of "tu quoque" amounts to a fallacy. It depends on the context. If you're trying to discredit the GC position just because someone did something bad in its name, then "tu quoque" is a fair response here.

Now this really was a masterclass in whataboutery. Thanks for the explanation

Thanks, Zinko. I always learn something from reading Mumsnet threads! especially on FWR.

Er, I could learn how to spell. Thanks Zinco!

Feminist mural in Madrid vandalised on International Women’s Day. The faces of the 15 women depicted in the mural were covered with black spray paint.

Now that really is vandalism, because it could have destroyed the mural. Interesting that this was the third act of vandalism registered in just a few hours -- the feminist mural, the transwoman memorial and a feminist mural in the nearby city of Alcalá de Henares was damaged after being inaugurated just two days earlier.

Now it sounds likely that the transwoman's memorial was graffitied by the same people who damaged two feminist murals. They left a note describing feminism as “one of the bêtes noires of our era.”

The same misogynists could well object to the Montero law, not (obviously) because it undermines women's rights but because they genuinely are transphobic.

So Shizuku, do you want to change the title of this thread, as there's even less evidence that the memorial was attacked by feminists?

Well, well, well. How the turntables...

The two events were weeks apart as the latest information on further damage to feminists murals. Agree with what has been said about not nice to damage memorials, or to accuse without evidence.

Graffiti is a very common protest form in Spain. The messages are not insults or threats which is more civilised than in other occasions.

I haven’t read the full thread, so apologies if this might have been said already: Cogam (the association whose walls were written on) has an annual ladrillo (brick) award for transphobia and last year it was given to a prominent Spanish feminist Lucía Etxebarria who is a serious critic of the white paper to introduce the known as Montero’s trans law. Montero is the minister for equality (now changed to equalities to keep in line with other things that trend dictates are in a spectrum)) That draft bill was broken down by Etxebarria highlighting what is often discussed in this board. The regressiveness of gender and the clash of trans wants with women’s rights. She was doxed, received threats to herself and her children, etc. Montero present at the award event applauded when the announcement was made with a digital brick thrown to the digital picture of Lucía Etxebarria. If that’s not incitement to violence, it’s very close.
Montero has refused to meet with feminists groups that question the law she sponsors and last month a letter criticising her clear bias was published from feminists within her own party. She has also refused to define what’s a woman.

I thought this information can also aid to explain, not justify, why if GC people wrote that graffiti they have chosen that location.

Thank you for the background . Sounds a bit like Scotland , where
Government makes no effort to support female politicians receiving abuse from people who purport to be trans allies.

^Montero present at the award event applauded when the announcement was made with a digital brick thrown to the digital picture of Lucía Etxebarria^

Awful. Yet doesn't deviate from the general tactics in the slightest there.

[quote Shizuku]This is happening in Spain.

twitter.com/KatyMontgomerie/status/1378633917482332163

twitter.com/EcosyTinta/status/1368272074972729349[/quote]
Gosh that's horrible. Thank you for bringing awareness to this. Transphobia needs to end 🤍

I also condemn the vandalism of the feminism murals. Vandalism of memorials is not on and I hope that there is CCTV so the culprits can be punished according to Spanish law.

@Shizuku I am sure that you join me in this?

I stated exactly the same yesterday when it was only the trans woman memorial.

Again, fighting for women’s rights is not transphobia.

Why don’t those of you who come here to harrass feminists on a feminism board go and do something useful, like fighting actual transphobia and leave feminists protesting over the erosion of women’s rights alone.

Hear, hear!
Here's some ideas to get you started:
Campaign for third spaces
Campaign for wraparound mental health care
Campaign for aftercare for surgery and ongoing mental health access
Campaign for toxic masculinity to be tackled in sports, enabling trans people to be part of the team without fear.

Gosh that's horrible. Thank you for bringing awareness to this. Transphobia needs to end 🤍

The graffiti on the centre is a bit difficult to read but it doesn't seem to include any attacks on trans people just people complaining about this organisation's misogyny, the rights of women to identify their own oppression etc. . Could you point the transphobia out to me ASugarr?

Graffiti is a very common protest form in Spain.

Once went to Spain to watch the Tour de France. Overnight the Basque fans had spray painted every car on the mountain with ETA symbols.

@334bu

*Gosh that's horrible. Thank you for bringing awareness to this. Transphobia needs to end 🤍*

The graffiti on the centre is a bit difficult to read but it doesn't seem to include any attacks on trans people just people complaining about this organisation's misogyny, the rights of women to identify their own oppression etc. . Could you point the transphobia out to me ASugarr?

@ASugarr

Did you miss the post that makes it quite clear it wasn't feminists of any type that did that?

February 22, 2021
Feminist collective protests against proposed Trans and LGTBI laws at Spanish Equality ministry

A group of protesters, called by Espacio Feminista Radical (EFR), have gathered this Saturday at noon before the Ministry of Equality, in Madrid, to denounce the consequences that, in their opinion, will have the identity laws – Trans Law and LGTBI Law-– drafted by the department of Irene Montero

You know reading this makes me happy. It's not just us bots/a handful of women blah blah, it's even occurred to women in other countries that this may not be the greatest thing since sliced bread. I feel less alone in my tiny bot world.

And FWIW I utterly condemn all the vandalism. Especially any that cannot be removed if there is some.