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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Chauvin trial re George Floyd - Sky News

291 replies

chilling19 · 31/03/2021 08:42

Is anyone watching this? With the really upsetting and unarguable against video footage I can't see how the defence can build a case. Also the baiting by the defence lawyer of the female EMT witness was horrendous, as was the judge telling her off. She held her ground though, as did the previous child (female) witnesses.

OP posts:
BilboBercow · 01/04/2021 22:04

What it comes to for me is that George Floyd lost consciousness and Derek Chauvin kept his knee on his neck. They couldn't find a pulse and he kept his knee on his neck.

There's no explanation for that and no possible excuse in my mind.

VladmirsPoutine · 01/04/2021 22:05

Or white women who are not believed.

My heart truly bleeds for them. They have it the worst of all groups.

SmokedDuck · 01/04/2021 22:06

@ismiseeire

It will come down to expert medical witnesses as to cause of death.
Yes, I agree, so a lot will hinge on the science, which may or may not be very exact.

The thing is, even if something totally different happened medically, it wasn't a good police response. Even when you consider that the police are allowed to use a lot more force than most other groups that might use restraint, like nurses or whatever, the police can use deadly force if it's deemed necessary. But they still didn't follow good practice.

But my feeling is that because of the politicisation the court is kind of screwed in terms of its ability to look at the evidence about the death itself.

Delphinium20 · 01/04/2021 22:08

* I* wonder if they will convict a white officer of killing a black victim.

Excellent point.

Delphinium20 · 01/04/2021 22:09

I take no issue with the OP (pretty sure sure we agree) just the "no racism here folks!" posters are rather Confused

Captpike · 01/04/2021 22:12

@Scepticaltank

So this is just entertainment to you? George Floyd deserved it?

NiceGerbil · 01/04/2021 22:13

I still don't understand why this thread is in feminism?

I also think that televising trials is not a good thing. Like with oj. It just doesn't sit right with me.

NiceGerbil · 01/04/2021 22:14

I can't believe that people have watched that video of him being killed and still find excuses.

CovoidOfAllHumanity · 01/04/2021 22:16

To me it beggars belief that anyone can seriously suggest that kneeling on a mans neck for 9 minutes has nothing to do with his death.

At the start of it he is conscious and moving and talking and by the end he hasn't got a pulse.

I cannot understand how that could equate to him coincidentally dying of an unrelated cause whilst having his neck crushed?

I also cannot understand what autopsy evidence you could have to prove otherwise. You cannot get a time of death down to minutes or seconds from an autopsy. You'd be better to do that from the video footage where you can clearly see at what point he looses consciousness.

He may have taken drugs that predisposed him to his heart stopping and he may have had underlying heart disease but he would not have died if the guy didn't asphyxiate him.

I get they have to mount a defence but the whole world has seen what happened. Of course there will be riots if he is not convicted.

WinterIsGone · 01/04/2021 22:20

To me it beggars belief that anyone can seriously suggest that kneeling on a mans neck for 9 minutes has nothing to do with his death.
This. Totally shocking.

ChocolateCrackles · 01/04/2021 22:22

It amazes me that this board is usually so savvy with calling out ideological manipulation/media bias and yet can't seem to fathom that it may also be something happening during this trial.

Erkrie · 01/04/2021 22:23

I take no issue with the OP (pretty sure sure we agree) just the "no racism here folks!" posters are rather

I have no idea whether it was a racist murder or not. Nor do you. You can speculate. Always best not to assume though isn't it. And chauvin is not on trial for racism. He's on trial for murder. A similar murder to other cases. White men killed by the police. So whether he is found guilty or not, it is unlikely to answer whether it was a racist attack or not.

NiceGerbil · 01/04/2021 22:23

Yes I agree.

And I still have no idea why the OP put this thread in this topic.

CovoidOfAllHumanity · 01/04/2021 22:25

It is absolutely well known in the mental health and policing world in the U.K. (and presumably the US) that people who are in a state of heightened arousal with adrenaline coursing are at risk of cardiac arrest.
Add into that drugs (illicit or prescribed) and health conditions and restraint can be the final straw that kills someone.
Prone restraint (face down) is especially dangerous
If you know someone is high or mentally ill you should take more rather than less care if trying to restrain that person.
That police officer at the very least recklessly endangered George Floyd even if he did not intend to kill him. His death was a reasonably foreseeable outcome of that restraint and even untrained passers by were able to see that risk so why wasn't Derek Chauvin
He is without excuse in my eyes.

SweatyPie · 01/04/2021 22:25

@VladmirsPoutine

Wish someone would consider the plight of those white men who are routinely assaulted, harangued and assaulted by police officers. Race has nothing to do with it. WE are all The Human race.

Who is disbelieving them? Other whites men and women?

Most people acknowledge police brutality happens, people's point is being black is like having a target on your head. All it takes is the officer to have a bad day.

We've seen it with elite people including Daniel Shaver but generally being black is a n additional risk factor

Erkrie · 01/04/2021 22:32

I do appreciate being black can be an additional factor in the states. Which is why officer Daniels put out a series of videos on Facebook how to behave if someone gets pulled over. Which is very useful advice for anyone really. Get through the moment and deal with the rights and wrongs of it afterwards. But GF, I'm not sure. Mainly because it seems to be a police restraint method, and other men have died as a result of that too. Chauvin might be a racist. Or he might not be. I don't think the outcome of this case will provide that answer. An overhaul of policing methods and restraints clearly needs reviewing regardless.

N51BU · 01/04/2021 22:38

If chauvin walks free I hate to think what's going to happen across the U.S. It will be carnage

Erkrie · 01/04/2021 22:39

I think it will be carnage either way.

NiceGerbil · 01/04/2021 22:52

'An overhaul of policing methods and restraints clearly needs reviewing regardless'

The USA policing system is very complicated. It's not like the UK. There's not one system in use. There's all different sorts with different powers training etc all over the place.

I'm not an expert but I think that's true.

As for the racist point. In that case no one can ever say anything is racist unless the person says something. I mean that's not exactly going to happen very often is it.

If the black people in that part of the world say the police are racist then I take their word for it. They know way better than me.

The implication of that is also that the riots etc had no basis whatsoever. And I'm not sure I want to know the answers as to why the rioting happened if not because people were sick of registration racist police.

CovoidOfAllHumanity · 01/04/2021 22:55

The reason racism is involved is that what happened to George Floyd is overwhelming more likely to happen to black men than to white men in the US and in the U.K.

Yes you will be able to find some cases of white men who died due to police brutality but you will find many more cases of black men (and boys like 12 yr old Tamir Rice) and relative to the population there is no argument at all that they are over represented in deaths in custody.

In the U.K. I only know of one white person who died under police/ mental health restraint (Thomas Orchard) but loads and loads of black men (Rocky Bennet, Leon Briggs, Seni Lewis, Sean Rigg, Kevin Clarke, Kingsley Burrell, Rashad Charles, Edson Da Costa and that is not an exhaustive list)

See the Angiolini report for official stats.

In my view it is due to the racist stereotype that black men are dangerous so that when they are mentally unwell and 'behave oddly' they are perceived as aggressive and met with force more than white men.

To being it back to feminism it is also a trope applied to black women. The justification given for restraining Joy Gardner with 13m of tape and asphyxiating her to death was her 'super human strength'

Met police are 4 x more likely to use force in arresting a black person than a white one and 3x more likely to taser them.

So yes indisputably police violence is a racial issue.

VladmirsPoutine · 01/04/2021 23:02

people's point is being black is like having a target on your head. All it takes is the officer to have a bad day

I know all of this. I'm also part Black. I just find it bemusing to read people falling over themselves to justify it, explain it, rationalise it, offer up whatabouttery about it, claim GF was high / drunk / criminal record etc etc. Basically doing everything but just acknowledging that it was racist, GF was murdered and that whilst similar has happened to white men doesn't detract from the fact that police brutality most often targets Black people, and incidentally Black children.

Scepticaltank · 01/04/2021 23:07

[quote Captpike]@Scepticaltank

So this is just entertainment to you? George Floyd deserved it?[/quote]
Q1. I am observing how much this has become "entertainment". I am not at all engaged in the case, only in observing how people have behaved in response to the case, which is the content of the vast majority of the media streams about what happened.

Q2. Deserved it? I'm female. I'm not a testosterone driven murderer. You are going to have to ask a testosterone driven murder that question. Do you think they might have the answer to your "deserve it" question? It is not a question that I would ever ask.

Delphinium20 · 01/04/2021 23:09

The USA policing system is very complicated. It's not like the UK. There's not one system in use. There's all different sorts with different powers training etc all over the place.

Very true. Local unions and governments have varying rules. Police are not a federal agency, governance is city based and we also have state patrols but they deal more with highway and interstate crime.

MabelPines · 01/04/2021 23:15

Watching this trail is very eye opening because the narrative that we have been told by the media is very different to what is being presented in court. But i can’t understand why they are so keen to paint GF as being a decent man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, when it was entirely his own damn fault he was on meth and using counterfeit money, he deserved to be arrested and charged.

But he didn’t deserve to be killed because of those crimes, as a pp said in a civilised society police should never have the powers to carry out summary justice! The prosecution would have had a much stronger case by presenting the argument that the state has a duty of care not to injure or kill people even if those people are criminals.

I hope that whatever the outcome of the trial the police are given better training in restraint and dealing with vulnerable people, even if that vulnerability is a result of their own bad choices.

Erkrie · 01/04/2021 23:20

The USA policing system is very complicated. It's not like the UK. There's not one system in use. There's all different sorts with different powers training etc all over the place.

I appreciate that it's different in different states, and not all would employ the knee on the neck. If it is a recognised restraint though, unless Chauvin didn't do it properly, as presumably as he was taught to do, then really, as something that the police do as part of their job, he shouldn't be prosecuted for it. It makes me think of the st John ambulance training I did (it's sort of the same but clearly different in application) and I was told that as long as I carried out the techniques exactly as I was taught, then I would not be prosecuted for anything that subsequently went wrong.

I could imagine a mass walk out from police if they find themselves being prosecuted for something they have been taught to do as part of their job.

As for the racist point. In that case no one can ever say anything is racist unless the person says something. I mean that's not exactly going to happen very often is it.

No. But is it reasonable to automatically assume that they are, as the whole world has done in this case?

If the black people in that part of the world say the police are racist then I take their word for it. They know way better than me.

Maybe so. But it doesn't mean every person that is called or accused of being a racist is actually a racist either. I appreciate that people say as a black person someone may get dealt with more harshly / rapidly by the police. It may well be true. But it doesn't mean that every interaction with the police is racist either. And in the case of Chauvin, and the world watching with baited breath / risk of riots if he isn't convicted, and the assumption that he is racist, even though others have died of the same technique, somehow it all seems a little bit off to me.