Rugby - RFU seeking feedback on its transgender policy

[Biscuitsanddoombar]

Will go on its website on Wednesday to get public feedback

I have completed the survey.

I really like how Rosa Tucker framed it. When you’re looking at balancing safety, fairness and inclusion, as England Rugby say they are in the survey, then he says it absolutely has to be done in that specific order

Safety>Fairness>inclusion.

Inclusion is the least of them. ER have put inclusion first, and they just don’t have any reason to do this. By prioritising inclusion, they’re overriding concerns about safety and fairness, and that’s just not the spirit of rugby as I’ve understood it in my decades of involvement.

Given that I think I may have taught sport physiology to a couple of them, in the RFU, I'll be filling in that feedback form, including my name and teaching posts!

Stupid, illogical fuckwits!!!

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Given that I think I may have taught sport physiology to a couple of them, in the RFU, I'll be filling in that feedback form, including my name and teaching posts!

Stupid, illogical fuckwits!!!

Yes! Go Curious

I've competed it. I made the comment that if a transman has to sign a waiver to complete against men, surely every woman playing against a transwoman should be required to do the same. It's exactly the same situation but for the numbers and it only takes a tackle from one person to break your neck.

That policy clearly has a certain lobby group sorry charity's grubby handprints all over it from the constant use of gender when they should use sex through assigned at birth to the use of CIS .
I can't say anymore right now as I'd likely get deleted.
I'm just so angry in what other circumstances does 1 persons feelings come before the physical safety of countless other people?

90kg?! How many women weight 90kg??? Very few I imagine. What a ludicrously high ceiling.

@HavelockVetinari

90kg?! How many women weight 90kg??? Very few I imagine. What a ludicrously high ceiling.

Absolutely, that’s nearly 200lbs 😱 fuck sake.

The average woman in England weighs 11 stone (70.2kg) and is 5ft 3in tall (161.6cm).

From the first question where 'Cis' is used to categorise women, it's clear what the agenda is.
I'm going to email the RFU and ask them why they have called women 'cis' and point out how offensive it is. I feel like phoning them and asking someone to explain it to me but an email will do!

Can someone post the link? I can't find it

@Sexnotgender

The average woman in England weighs 11 stone (70.2kg) and is 5ft 3in tall (161.6cm).

www.ultimaterugby.com/lagi-tuima

I went looking for Rugby stats... The smallest player on the England team. The largest...124kg. Plus she's over 1.9m tall.

Off to look at the Men's team now....

Heaviest man is 130kg... But only 1.8m tall.

But even if that size is 'normal' at professional level, it won't be at local level!

When some rugby clubs still won't even entertain the thought of a women or girls team this is so poor. My daughter plays and although there are LOADS of local rugby clubs we have to travel quite far for fixtures at strange times.
As well as the obvious biological factors, girls have been put off, or even not allowed to play for so long 'because they'll get hurt', 'because it's not a girl's sport' etc. etc.

IT'S NOT FAIR!

www.ultimaterugby.com/lagi-tuima

From that link I click on England to choose the team - men's team obvs.
Oh, England Women is right at the end. Surprise.

The problem here is that actually anyone who has taken drugs should not be taking part in sport. Both transmen and transwomen take drugs, the biggest advantage, as usual, goes to the transwomen whose testosterone levels remain at the high end compared to a real woman.

But it's not faaaaaaiiiiiiiir. Yes it is very fair, to women and men who train hours and hours to be the best they can be at their sport without drugs.

My teenage daughter has broken a limb twice playing rugby. She still absolutely loves the sport but each time she's been wary about getting back into it after injury.
Just shown her this and she gutted.
The thought of potentially having to play against males means she won't carry on after U18.

That was a very cathartic rant - I finished it by channelling my inner grandma & telling them they should be ashamed of themselves for pretending they don’t know what a women is

Thank you for starting this thread. I have completed the consultation. My anger and indignation may have been apparent in my response...I added a paragraph about the initial descriptors and that cis woman is an offensive term to me. I can't believe the RFU is proposing this.

I could hear my husband muttering in rage as he filled it in just now

“I’m writing “MAN, MALE, XY” in their stupid other box!” followed by frantic tapping on the iPad keyboard.

Thanks for starting this thread. I'm genuinely upset by the England RFU's approach to this.

World Rugby took a science-based approach to this and can be reviewed in full here: www.world.rugby/news/563437
The conclusion was that it is not safe for anyone who has gone through male puberty to play women's rugby.

When I started playing rugby 20+ years ago, we were the only sport that openly welcomed GNC women. To see my youth club now being pressurised to be "inclusive" vs the safety of their own players is devastating.

My response to the consultation was clear: if they proceed with their current transgender policy proposal then my daughter will cease playing the game (switch to play football, where her neck won't be broken), and I won't be coaching the women's game like us female ex-players keep being asked to do in order to increase visibility (no way my conscience would allow a male puberty player to harm a female player on my watch).

One of the things I find hardest to deal with is that I genuinely believe sports should be for all, and I really want to be part of the conversation that works out how transgender players can enjoy and excel at sports, but lazy proposals like this one from England RFU don't help anyone.

I have seen the argument made so many times.

It goes something like.
Some men have physical advantages over other men.
Some women have physical advantages over other women.
Some women are taller and stronger than some men.
Some people like Micheal Phelps are born with huge advantages over others at a sport, that's life and life isn't fair.
Rather than separating by sex, other parameters like height/ weight would be better. Categories like this exist in other sports.
If women lose in these fair categories, then they're not trying hard enough.

It seems to me that rugby England have lifted their totally arbitrary parameters directly from this argument.

I wonder what their game is? Women are over 5'7. Why shouldn't they be checked? I mean it's asking for a massive row from all sides. Were they fed this idea or did they come up with it themselves?

And what are these safety checks anyway? Do they really want to go down that route? It sounds open to loads of accusations of discrimination.

Also.

Women are not just small men FFS.

I have just been watching Sky Sports (again) and a slot came on about this - honestly from the way it was presented it sounded as if it is a given -they used the word propose a couple of times but no mention of a consultation and no mention that it is against world rugby recommendations.

Then we had a slot from a transwoman who plays football and it was all positive and how sport is so important - yes, yes it is and it is good that sports and clubs can be accepting and individuals can continue to enjoy sports, stay fit and healthy etc etc, but there has to be a line in the sand as soon as safety is concerned (fairness is a separate issue).

I want to hear a lot more about what this panel will be assessing when a player approaches them looking for clearance to play.

What criteria will they be assessing?
What measures will they be using?
What qualifications will the panel have?
What would cause a player not to pass the assessment?
Will other players opinions be taken into account, eg around sharing changing facilities?
Who will be measuring the testosterone levels?
Who will be paying for the testing?
How often will it be done?

It’s a ridiculous fudge and I’m not happy. Please, also get your rugby loving husbands, sons etc to fill this in, because under this regime, they will be asked to accept responsibility for the safety of female bodies on the field with them. My husband is really upset at the prospect of being required to tackle someone he knows is female. All decent men should be. This goes against his personal moral code of never hurting women that’s at the core of his DNA.

@AfternoonToffee

I have just been watching Sky Sports (again) and a slot came on about this - honestly from the way it was presented it sounded as if it is a given -they used the word propose a couple of times but no mention of a consultation and no mention that it is against world rugby recommendations.

Then we had a slot from a transwoman who plays football and it was all positive and how sport is so important - yes, yes it is and it is good that sports and clubs can be accepting and individuals can continue to enjoy sports, stay fit and healthy etc etc, but there has to be a line in the sand as soon as safety is concerned (fairness is a separate issue).

Have you got a link to the piece about the transwoman who plays football? Because I saw a piece on Sky about a couple of transmen who play, but they play in a specialist LBGT friendly league which allows mixed sex teams, one of which includes a transwoman who featured in the Martina Navratilova documentary a couple of years ago. I don't think there are any transwomen playing on official FA women's teams. To be honest, I think that's a route that the RFU should look to go down, with the caveat that it should be limited to touch Rugby not the full contact version. That way transwomen and transmen can still have the social and fitness benefits of the sport, and play with both women and men that are happy to participate in a mixed sex game, while protecting the right of women to play in single sex teams should they prefer.