Rugby - RFU seeking feedback on its transgender policy

[Biscuitsanddoombar]

Will go on its website on Wednesday to get public feedback

My closest friends are still training at local level and I 100% know that they will be incredibly uncomfortable being on a pitch with female players. On a more personal level, despite classing myself as a broad, strong, fairly fit and physical female and often 'bulkier' than my male friends, they can dump me rapidly on my arse when it comes to it - their muscle speed and physicality is just a different class.

Why the RFU can't/won't see this is frightening.

Who'd have thought the RFU of all places would be captured.

@BlackAlys

God, as a fairly hard-core Welsh rugby supporter (local, regional and National fan), I wince at the hits that our male and female players give and take during a game.

It's sheer madness to allow a biological male to play with female rugby players. Madness.

In an era where rugby players are being vocal about the risks of contact sport (head injuries, early dementia etc), it's utter madness that the biological lines are being blurrred for the sake of 'inclusion'.

I would support a crowdfund for test case this.

Can we FOI insurance companies who specialise in sport on their policies?? I think not, as they are not public entities, even if the sport is played in public??? What about rugby clubs - a big letter writing campaign (again!!!! Like someone said upthread the writing is becoming a full time job!)

I'm sure I read something about women being more likely to suffer concussion from impact than men. Probably on the BBC but I can't find it now.
As pp says, the sound of collisions in rugby can be terrifying and as well as dementia you have to wonder about MND.

Hopefully Fair Play for Women will be considering all the options for this travesty? Prioritising the wish for personal validation over the health and safety of women in unbelievable. How on earth have certain organisations been granted so much power to do so much harm?

Men (however they identify) need to prove that what they are proposing is safe.

How did it ever happen that the boot was on the other foot? I will never understand this. Not rugby, not refuges, not changing rooms, not helplines for women. Why did so many people roll over?

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

I'm sure I read something about women being more likely to suffer concussion from impact than men. Probably on the BBC but I can't find it now. As pp says, the sound of collisions in rugby can be terrifying and as well as dementia you have to wonder about MND.

I've read similar too. It was an article about research into why women are more likely to suffer concussion, and why they take longer than men to recover from it, IIRC.

That whole idea is ?????

Being over 5'7 is not unusual for women and if you play rugby and are tall I imagine you could weigh that.

Where did they get these numbers from?
There is no way that they won't get a massive load of shit for that. They are using arbitrary numbers to do safety checks (or whatever it was) on (I think it said trans and non binary people) but what are the checks? Have they said?
And they run the risk/ are walking into the argument that women can be big and strong and men can be small and less strong so splitting on sex is silly. I mean they are literally asking for that argument.

Again there is the idea that if tw (and non binary males) can't play with the women then they can't play at all which is not true.

Trans men have to sign a waiver if they want to play with men but. Will they qualify. How are the men going to feel about that?

Height and weight are the two things always used by people arguing that mixed sex is fair because within the sexes some people are physically advantaged over others.

Do they say who helped them come up with this?

I have heard/ read that men's skulls are weaker than men's. Or eggshell skulls, as some prefer to call it.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-51434749

I think this is the article you are wanting

Yes. It is absurd that knowing women are more prone to these injuries and dementia that Rugby union is ignoring the science here.

I dare say it needs to have lots of submissions with anecdotal evidence of issues and plenty of women pointing out they are concerned for their long term health and that refs are worried about it too.

A man, even of the same height and weight as a woman, will still be substantially stronger and more powerful. Anyone with experience of teenage boys will know that.

The concussion aspect is a real issue at present. Sky Sports News is often on in my house and I only ever half listen but they had a slot about concussion in the last few days. One was a figure skater I think, I couldn't find any information when I just tried to Google, but I did find this.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.skysports.com/amp/rugby-union/news/12321/12260872/concussion-in-rugby-eye-tracking-technology-to-be-trialled

DancelikeEmmaGoldman my ds isn't yet a teenager and is stick thin. I can just about hold him in an arm wrestle but it won't be long.

That's it Helleofabore Thank you.

And I've heard men in men's rugby teams say that they wouldn't want to play against a transman, because of the risk of causing an injury. OK the transman could sign a waiver, but it would be pretty horrific for the male player if their play resulted in an injury to the transman..

@Biscuitsanddoombar

I shall definitely be giving them some feedback on their daft proposals

You might like to mention that we have data on how much stronger male athletes are when compared with female athletes of the same weight. Because in weightlifting, a number of weight classes, although named differently for male and female lifters, happen to have the same weight limits.

And the records as well as median and average results show that male weightlifters who weigh the same as their female counterparts will outperform them by at least 10%. So if weight checks are supposed to protect women, the pound-for-pound greater strength of male athletes would need to be taken into account.

39 applications from trans men, seven from trans women and four players identifying as men but wishing to continue playing in women’s rugby.

Am I reading the article correctly, 9 applications from transmen wishing to continue playing in women's rugby?
4 players identifying as men?

thanks OP, I will look out for that. 14 st 2 is a pretty hefty bloke at 5'7"

Yep. BMI chart puts a person with these measurements in the obese category (whether male or female).

Disclaimer: I’m pretty sure BMI has been said to be an inappropriate measure for fit athletes like rugby players. But still.

I wonder what would happen if Swansea University did a study using these transwomen players and the power of their tackles and the damage to opponents. If it was so important to disprove the harm, surely this would be the way to do it.

I find it horrific that the science is now in and conclusions effectively confirmed by Harper who was at the WR symposium and these organisations are still prioritizing males ahead of female safety.

Sadly, I wonder if there is probably a great deal of inclusive goodwill vs well informed decision making being shown by other female players. Are the risks probably being discussed? If you are currently playing in women’s rugby in England or Wales, are you getting any information? Or is it just what you find for yourself?

I cannot believe they are pushing ahead like this.

If height and weight are used as assessment criteria for safety purposes then presumably it could lead to women who exceed the agreed limits being excluded from playing. This is just another tactic to muddy the waters and to avoid using the clearest criteria of all; biological sex.

Wait, who and why is asking transmen to sign a waiver?

I wonder what would happen if Swansea University did a study using these transwomen players and the power of their tackles and the damage to opponents. If it was so important to disprove the harm, surely this would be the way to do it.

Would a study of this nature even pass the ethical approval stage? The risks to female participants are so obvious and high, could you even argue there is equipoise regarding outcomes or that the trial could be safely run without harm to female participants?

@Tibtom

Wait, who and why is asking transmen to sign a waiver?

The WR recommendations were that transmen needed to sign a waiver to play against males.

Would a study of this nature even pass the ethical approval stage? The risks to female participants are so obvious and high, could you even argue there is equipoise regarding outcomes or that the trial could be safely run without harm to female participants?

I was thinking using equipment with monitoring capabilities rather than live women. I would not be thinking of using live women at all.

I’ll just pop this here to help with the responses

Twitter is full of the be pronouned calling it hate and bigotry without having any factual answers to why it is. Am enjoying the numbers citing Harper’s old study only to be told they’ve done a new study and u turned on original findings 😆

I really can't believe they are still going against world rugby findings.
What will it take? Serious injury? Death? The rfu are spineless.