Rugby - RFU seeking feedback on its transgender policy

[Biscuitsanddoombar]

Will go on its website on Wednesday to get public feedback

Just filled the survey in and went for it. I’m an ITU nurse in South Wales. I’ve seen some horrendous rugby injuries. Mostly in fit, healthy young men that will never walk again. Putting Men into the women’s game will increase the serious injury risk. I can’t believe they are just dismissing women’s safety like this

I got halfway through the Guardian article and stopped at the "assigned male at birth" BS.
I'm definitely going to complete the form. I'm horrified at the idea.

Does the survey require you to provide contact details?

@BettyFilous

Does the survey require you to provide contact details?

No. It’s actually remarkably brief for something so important. Oh, and I clicked “other” as I refused to click that I was “cis” .

One of the things I find hardest to deal with is that I genuinely believe sports should be for all, and I really want to be part of the conversation that works out how transgender players can enjoy and excel at sports

This has always been my take with British Cycling. By shoehorning males into women’s sport, sport governing bodies are actually missing out on the big picture, one that most people would support.

As the mother of a male rugby player who has knelt, mid game, pitch side whilst paramedics attended to my son before rushing him to hospital for emergency surgery it is unconscionable and criminally wrong to allow those born male to compete against girls.

My son made a full recovery but I do not exaggerate when I say the boy who (unintentionally) injured him could have killed a girl.

gay I will see if I can find anything, I am at a funeral this morning so it will be later on.

@Quadzilla

One of the things I find hardest to deal with is that I genuinely believe sports should be for all, and I really want to be part of the conversation that works out how transgender players can enjoy and excel at sports

This has always been my take with British Cycling. By shoehorning males into women’s sport, sport governing bodies are actually missing out on the big picture, one that most people would support.

Yes. This ‘solution’ causes more problems than it solves.

They need to decide what they are actually segregating by. Is it sex? Gender identity? Size? Weight? What is the point of the categories? Which of these give advantages over others?

To be honest, I think that's a route that the RFU should look to go down, with the caveat that it should be limited to touch Rugby not the full contact version. That way transwomen and transmen can still have the social and fitness benefits of the sport, and play with both women and men that are happy to participate in a mixed sex game, while protecting the right of women to play in single sex teams should they prefer.

Mixed sex touch teams already exist, or they certainly did when I played. We’d play regular rugby throughout the season and play in a mixed sex touch league over the summer.

Stonewall still saying 'this is discrimination.' The safety of women athletes would be completely thrown under the bloody bus if they had anything to do with it...

I filled mine in assuming I was speaking directly to one of them that I had taught. Assuming that I have they might even recognise my writig style - all Socratic questioning and sarcasm

Having read the FPFW thread and pondered all that has been written here and elsewhere, I went with a very personal angle: what did you measure in the biomech lab? Why did you stop playing mixed sex rugby? Look at your mum, wife, sister, daughter - would you play a full contact game against them? Why not?

And then asked them to step back from their Stonewall training and to wonder what it was they were REALLY being asked to do.

We shall see...

I added a paragraph about the initial descriptors and that cis woman is an offensive term to me. Yes! The Other box takes quite a bit of text, I found out

@BatleyTownswomensGuild

Stonewall still saying 'this is discrimination.' The safety of women athletes would be completely thrown under the bloody bus if they had anything to do with it...

Fucking hell. Just own it, Stonewall. You won’t be happy until it’s mixed sex everything, everywhere.

Surely if a transman has transitioned then they have been taking testosterone making them much bigger and stronger. This is not fair to other women. If no drugs are involved they can play by sex.

I dont feel we should have different rules. LBGT teams are a good solution.

If push came to shove and it has ti be resolved then transwomen should play in mens and transmen in womens as this is the safest option.

If push came to shove women would lose...

... which is how we get to 'no compromise'. See how far Stonewall and TRAs have pushed many women off their usual social niceties?

Fucking hell. Just own it, Stonewall. You won’t be happy until it’s mixed sex everything, everywhere

Mixed sex everything is not sufficiently validating - women must know their place as existing to validate men.

Fucking hell. Just own it, Stonewall. You won’t be happy until it’s mixed sex everything, everywhere

Mixed sex isn't the goal, it's ensuring that female people have nothing at all, regardless of how desperately needed, regardless of what other provisions may be available, that ever is just for female people. The very existence of it is an anathema. Even support groups for conditions affecting only female people can't be allowed.

As Tibtom says: it's ensuring that people born female know their place in the world. And it ain't to have any of their needs met.

Yes, that is the end result.

Done, thanks for signposting this. Took advantage of the free text box at the end to make some hopefully salient points. Teenage son plays rugby; they played mixed teams up to U13 (not in UK then) but the differences become pretty obvious after that age.

In rugby, we need to Chesterton’s fence it.

What is women’s rugby for? Why does it exist?

I’m unrelentingly fucking angry about this. There wasn’t any problem deciding what women are when I was playing and we had to make do with second rate facilities, lack of funding, constant derision and undermining.

There wasn’t any question of increasing inclusion when my gay friend was bullied out of the men’s team, while the women’s team was about one third or more lesbian and bisexual players. I don’t imagine that any women have a problem with trans identified or non binary female players on our teams, as long as they’re not using testoerone. I certainly wouldn’t. If the men’s teams do, then let them work more on their inclusion, which has always been donkeys years behind the women.

The blazer brigade fucking women over one more time is no surprise to me. I lived through it before.

One of the many concerns that I raised was that sex is observed at or before birth not assigned arbitrarily and if they cannot understand such a basic scientific fact how could anyone trust them to properly understand or asses any actual scientific evidence (of the type and quality of evidence that wr produced)?
I then asked was this inability to understand science why they were ignoring all the evidence of increased risk to women?
I also asked what they intended to do to prevent women and girls from having to shower and change infront of biological males?
I quoted the equality act and suggested that they actually read it instead of listening to someone else's opinion on what it should say and that they have a moral duty to use the single sex exemption.
I asked them how and under what circumstances was it morally or legally justifiably to put one person's feelings before the physical safety of numerous others?

Completed too. Told them they should be ashamed of capitulating, that they were throwing women's safety and lives under the bus, and that it is still law that women are entitled to single sex spaces, such as changing rooms.

I'm also and "other" - adult female

@Sophoclesthefox

In rugby, we need to Chesterton’s fence it.

What is women’s rugby for? Why does it exist?

I’m unrelentingly fucking angry about this. There wasn’t any problem deciding what women are when I was playing and we had to make do with second rate facilities, lack of funding, constant derision and undermining.

There wasn’t any question of increasing inclusion when my gay friend was bullied out of the men’s team, while the women’s team was about one third or more lesbian and bisexual players. I don’t imagine that any women have a problem with trans identified or non binary female players on our teams, as long as they’re not using testoerone. I certainly wouldn’t. If the men’s teams do, then let them work more on their inclusion, which has always been donkeys years behind the women.

The blazer brigade fucking women over one more time is no surprise to me. I lived through it before.

God yes, all of this.

I played about 15 years ago and I was in the absolute minority who wasn’t a lesbian. It was so inclusive of gender non conforming women and a great sport.

Remind me how many “out” male rugby players there are?

The problem with many of your responses is that you are writing about the safety issues of men competing with women. Transwomen argue, and clearly the RFU have bought this, that anatomically and physiologically they are no longer like men. They aren’t as strong, fast etc as men. That’s probably true, but it doesn’t make them like women either. That’s the point you should be making. That weakened males are still distinctly different, and a danger, to females on the rugby pitch.