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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rugby - RFU seeking feedback on its transgender policy

287 replies

Biscuitsanddoombar · 30/03/2021 20:17

Will go on its website on Wednesday to get public feedback

OP posts:
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Tibtom · 31/03/2021 07:57

Thanks, but I presume RFU don't see why this would be necessary?

Tibtom · 31/03/2021 07:57

To sign a waiver ^

Tibtom · 31/03/2021 07:59

Do RFU expect tall heavy women to play on the men's teameven though they are women and don't identify as men?

Sansaplans · 31/03/2021 08:01

When I played rugby at uni I was overweight, but even as a 5'11 15 stone female, the men who were shorter and weighed less were far stronger. Height and weight doesn't override biology. It's such a shame as women's rugby has been gradually growing the past few years, and this will no doubt put a lot of women off.

AnyOldPrion · 31/03/2021 08:06

Would this be covered under the EA2010? If you allow some men in but not others, it’s unfair. Taller men are being discriminated against on the grounds of their sex as women of that height and weight are not excluded.

Sexnotgender · 31/03/2021 08:19

@Sansaplans

When I played rugby at uni I was overweight, but even as a 5'11 15 stone female, the men who were shorter and weighed less were far stronger. Height and weight doesn't override biology. It's such a shame as women's rugby has been gradually growing the past few years, and this will no doubt put a lot of women off.
I played rugby for 6 years. I’m 5ft 1 and was about 8.5/9 stone when I played.

I happily played against women 6ft tall.

I would not countenance playing against a 5ft 7 14stone male. So bloody dangerous.

If this shit had been happening when I played I’d simply have stopped playing as the risk would have been too great.

Sexnotgender · 31/03/2021 08:20

@Tibtom

Do RFU expect tall heavy women to play on the men's teameven though they are women and don't identify as men?
Indeed. It really is a poorly thought out metric.
Helleofabore · 31/03/2021 09:08

Considering that their parameters would include Faf de Klerk, I would be interested in the other parameters they are using to assess.

Does this then rest on coaches to ultimately make the decisions? I don’t know how they are going to stand up and state they are still prioritizing female Health.

Kit19 · 31/03/2021 09:15

I presume the waiver is there in an attempt to satisfy their insurers i.e. sign this and promise not to sue us to hell and back if you get very badly hurt. Can't see how that would work in reality though.

I cannot see grassroots rugby being happy with this, or coaches, referees or players. why do these sports bodies who managed to ignore the needs of women in sport for decades roll over on this issue so easily?

cheeseismydownfall · 31/03/2021 09:31

The draft policy also requires trans men to sign a waiver saying they understand the risks involved if they want to play men’s rugby.

Does every single female player also have to sign a waiver saying they understand the risks involved if they want to play women's rugby, given that may also involve playing with male-bodied people?

FFS. The misogyny.

Women - please STFU
Transmen - please sign this waiver saying that you are making your own reckless choice
Transwomen -

BettyFilous · 31/03/2021 09:32

I was thinking using equipment with monitoring capabilities rather than live women. I would not be thinking of using live women at all.

Unlike the RFU...

McDuffy · 31/03/2021 09:36

What annoyed me is the Stonewall line about barring trans people from sport... which isn't happening! Expand the bandwidth of male!

Tibtom · 31/03/2021 09:38

A waiver wouldn't stop you suing them - people can't sign away their right not to die or be injured due to negligence.

gardenbird48 · 31/03/2021 09:50

Presumably if they need to ask the transmen to sign a waiver absolving the RFU of any risk, then why would they not need the women's team to sign a waiver as well.

It is not beyond the realms of possibility (a la Maxine Blythe, champion women's cricketer who also plays on a men's team) that a transman playing on the men's team could meet a male player that is on both the mens' and the women's team, yet the female team members will not be asked to sign a waiver.

As research has proved, any performance depletion caused by a minor reduction in testosterone can be mitigated fully by extra training, so there would be no obvious reason that a male player could not play on both the men's and the women's teams.

I guess the RFU could try and discourage this from happening by making the rule that you have to stick to the 'identity' you have chosen (like cycling appears to have done) and if you register as a female player, you have to remain exclusively a female player.

However, this then creates the scenario where a male player is banned from playing on a male team. To work this through, a male player could register as female to play on the female team. That female team could end up disbanding because not enough women are happy to play with a male.

That male is then stuck with no club to play for even though there is a male club that he should be able to play in were it not for the fact that he has another 4 years (or whatever the rule says) to run on his 'female' registration. Would the RFU then allow this person to reregister to the men's team on the grounds that otherwise they can't play at all? If this is the case, then it makes a complete mockery of men's and women's teams - they may as well make all rugby mixed sex.

The RFU will work themselves into a massive mess with this one. As pp says, it is discrimination on grounds of sex - where some males are allowed to do something that others are not. However, it takes time, money and will to bring a prosecution and I'm not sure many men who identify as men are going to be willing to sue RFU because they want to play on the women's teams.

Then there is the bizarre asymmetry where a female born player on the male team is asked to sign an injury waiver but a female player who is asked to play against a team with one or more male people is not.

This whole situation with the RFU makes me really sad - in my mind rugby was one of the last bastions of old school fairness and sporting behaviour - there are extremely strict safety rules and I thought that they were better than this. I have always been a rugby fan (I dabbled a little in playing at university but I didn't like getting bashed and am too small but the social life was fun) but I did like the ethos of the game. Now I'm not sure.

The RFU probably realises that it is the pinnacle of dangerous contact sport. If they ignore the safety of women and allow male people to compete with them, then it opens the doors for every other sporting body in the country/world to point at rugby and say 'well, if they can do it, it is fine for us to do it'.

StandWithYou · 31/03/2021 09:59

Has the survey been posted on the website? Can’t find it on there.

Reading the comments under the Guardian piece and supporters of transwomen playing in women’s teams are bleating on about the height of ‘cis’ women and comparing 6’ women to 5’5” men and ignoring the work done by World Rugby.

StandWithYou · 31/03/2021 10:00

Agree with pp on not being able to waive rights where there is negligence. Makes you wonder just how half arsed this approach is as no solicitor would give this advice.

Sillyduckseverywhere · 31/03/2021 10:04

Annoyingly some top level female players are all for it. They don't see the issue. Hmm
Never mind the girls at grassroots that will quit.
The girls that don't want to share single sex facilities, the girls that will suffer injuries that could be prevented, the girls that don't make the first team because the trans woman that went through male puberty got in instead.

Kit19 · 31/03/2021 10:34

Silly I assume these top level women will more than happy to do some full contact training with the England men's team....I mean if there's no issue why not eh?

McDuffy · 31/03/2021 10:37

The Times covering the science improving player safety today... and still the RFU persist with this madness!

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6cea18e0-9195-11eb-af3b-900f1f5fe235?shareToken=5b1dc50e3ea15b29565729f9d9ecb2eb

MichelleofzeResistance · 31/03/2021 11:02

The girls that don't want to share single sex facilities, the girls that will suffer injuries that could be prevented, the girls that don't make the first team

That's the appallingly self centred behaviour that drives me nuts. Women who say "Well it doesn't affect me " without the emotional and social intelligence to have realised that other women will have experiences, bodies, feelings, needs and challenges that they are lucky enough to have remained oblivious to.

It is not inclusion unless it works for everyone . Inclusion does not necessarily involve stomping inconveniently disadvantaged women under foot to benefit others.

persistentwoman · 31/03/2021 11:05

@Sillyduckseverywhere

Annoyingly some top level female players are all for it. They don't see the issue. Hmm Never mind the girls at grassroots that will quit. The girls that don't want to share single sex facilities, the girls that will suffer injuries that could be prevented, the girls that don't make the first team because the trans woman that went through male puberty got in instead.
Remember, elite sportswomen would likely lose their sporting careers in the light of the Stonewall capture of sport. It wouldn't be safe for them to speak out at all.
Sexnotgender · 31/03/2021 11:14

Remember, elite sportswomen would likely lose their sporting careers in the light of the Stonewall capture of sport. It wouldn't be safe for them to speak out at all.

Exactly. Women will be denounced as hateful bigots and lose sponsorship etc. if they dare do anything other than agree what a marvellous idea males in female sport is.

Sillyduckseverywhere · 31/03/2021 11:34

Remember, elite sportswomen would likely lose their sporting careers in the light of the Stonewall capture of sport. It wouldn't be safe for them to speak out at all

Can't they maintain a dignified silence though?

I can't remember the details but a few Red roses have actually started a group on twitter and are vocal about so called bigotry. I was really surprised by it.
If I get a chance on my lunch hour I'll try and find it again

andyoldlabour · 31/03/2021 12:36

Every day, life becomes a bit more absurd, the sports organising bodies become ever more ridiculous.
Jonny Wilkinson, rugby World Cup winner - 14st exactly, 5' 10" tall, imagine him playing in a women's game.

FrauleinF · 31/03/2021 15:12

fondofbeetles.wordpress.com/2018/10/01/harder-better-faster-stronger-why-we-must-protect-female-sports/

I always end up being drawn back to this article about performance gaps between the sexes in different sports. The most relevant section is about weightlifting, which is divided into different weight categories. Somewhat unsurprisingly, a 69kg man will outlift a 69kg woman by a 30% margin. What is even more shocking is that no woman can outlift the 69kg man at all - the female world record holder in the top weight category (90kg+) only just outlifts the male world record holder in the 62kg division. I have attached pictures of both - the woman is 6 inches taller and over 6 stone heavier than the man.

If the starting point is a 5'7" 14 stone man, well, the woman with the equivalent strength simply doesn't exist.

Rugby - RFU seeking feedback on its transgender policy
Rugby - RFU seeking feedback on its transgender policy