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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Good Law project have succeeded...

379 replies

Wandawomble · 26/03/2021 12:12

goodlawproject.org/news/tavistock-success/

OP posts:
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6
R0wantrees · 28/03/2021 13:27

Many thanks OldCrone

From the article by Di Ceglie
(extract)
"I started to read the work of Robert Stoller (1968, 1975) and other literature on transsexualism. These articles concern mainly work with adults. I found, however, that this reading didn’t help as much as I’d hoped in understanding the complexity of the condition. This patient had to move to another town and so her exploratory therapy with
me had to come to an end. In one of her last sessions she said that perhaps this form of help had come too late and that her parents should have been aware of how she was feeling by the way she behaved. She wondered why they had not sought help for her
when she was a child. Her thoughts made me wonder why there was no service for children with these rare and unusual experiences. This planted in me the seed for the creation of such a service.

Soon after the end of this experience I became a consultant in child psychiatry in Croydon and started a workshop there with two or three members of staff who were interested in this area. We tried to see all the cases in the London Borough of Croydon, with a population of about 300,000, who presented with gender identity problems and we ended up with 3 or 4 cases. Some were seen in family therapy and I took one case into individual therapy. This child had some of the features that Stoller had described.

However, in the clinical sessions I could find no evidence of a ‘blissful’ relationship with the mother. Stoller writes: ‘When extremely feminine boys are studied in childhood, I find that their mothers try to maintain indefinitely a blissfully intimate symbiosis with their son . . .’ (Stoller, 1992)." (continues)

Stoller is discussed in these Uncommon Ground articles by Dr Em:
'Sexist History at the Heart of the ‘Science’ on Transsexualism, Part I: Benjamin, Ihlenfeld, Money & Ehrhardt'
May 1, 2020
(extract)
'Dr Em explores how the founding fathers of ‘scientific’ research on transgenderism/transsexualism were motivated by sexist beliefs.
The ‘science’ of the founding fathers of transgenderism/transsexualism – Harry Benjamin, John Money and Robert Stoller – are still cited and relied upon to change law, to put children on a path of sterilisation and surgery, to remove women’s rights and to argue that all women just naturally want to be treated as second class citizens. For example, Betty Steiner, Ray Blanchard and Kenneth Zucker, current leaders in the field, begin their book with an outline of how ‘Harry Benjamin was one of the first physicians to realize the despair that transsexual patients suffer… In 1968 Robert Stoller published his views on transsexualism from a psychoanalytic perspective… and in 1969 Richard Green and John Money published their coedited book… which has become another standard work in the field’. The NHS Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS), a specialised clinic for young people presenting with difficulties with their gender identity subscribes to the views of WPATH. Their website references ‘the Standards of Care of the Harry Benjamin Gender Dysphoria association, which is now the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH)’ and they state in other sections that they ‘agree with the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) that “knowledge of the factors contributing to gender identity development in adolescence is still evolving and not yet fully understood by scientists, clinicians, community members, and other stakeholders in equal measure’.

I am unconvinced by the ‘science’ which gender dysphoria, and thus transsexualism/transgenderism, is based on. What was it that convinced you? Was it the small study of tomboys whose assertive play then ‘proved’ that there are girl brains and boy brains? Or was it the way some of the offspring of stressed out rats have coitus which ‘proved’ that prenatal hormones affect mating and thus a gender identity exists? Or maybe it was the hypothesis that the mother had been over attentive to a male child which made him either feel like a girl or wish to distance himself from the men his mother allegedly hated? Even one of the founding fathers of the idea of transsexualism/transgenderism admitted that the concept was undermined by reality, Stoller made the striking admission that ‘obviously, not all beliefs that are contradicted by reality are delusions’. What does that mean? Transgenderism/transsexualism is based on the original science, so after being met with repeated defences of ‘true trans’ or genuine trans have a medical diagnosis I did what I believe we should all do when we can’t get our head around inconsistencies – I turned to the sources. This essay will look at the early ideas of human sex change and emerging field of transsexualism before looking in-depth at the work and ideas of Harry Benjamin and Charles Ihlenfeld, John Money and Anke Ehrhardt. The second essay in this series will explore the work of Robert Stoller, the notion that violence against women is a necessary and natural part of a masculine gender identity and should be encouraged in children. Part two will then question the idea of true trans or genuine trans.(continues)
uncommongroundmedia.com/sexist-science-transsexualism-part-i-benjamin-ihlenfeld-money-ehrhardt/

Sexist History at the Heart of the ‘Science’ on Transsexualism, Part II: Robert Stoller, True Trans
May 3, 2020
(extract)
"As well as relying on Benjamin and Money’s work, Robert Stoller applied Lorenz’s concept of imprinting to the postulated idea of gender identity. Originally published in 1968, Stoller’s first volume, Sex and Gender: The Development of Masculinity and Femininity, argued that transsexualism was the result of faulty imprinting of appropriate gender (sex-role stereotypes). To blame? Women, of course! For example, regarding one child Stoller determined that ‘the child’s physical beauty and artistic abilities made his mother’s “task” of creating a transsexual easier’. Stoller analysed the dreams and self-reports of three (yes, three) case studies of children he deemed transsexual boys and their mothers to formulate a deeply sexist theorem of why children do not conform to sex-role stereotypes. Stoller explained his use of such a limited sample because ‘these three were the only cases of childhood transsexualism seen in the first 10 years of this research project… our having seen so few probably indicates that this is a very rare condition’. Stoller assessed how ‘all the mothers comment that at two or three, these little boys were talking with them as equals concerning feminine matters, and were already well on their way to a later-developed impeccable feminine taste’. He observed of the children that ‘all have a remarkable precocity with regard to painting, dancing, costumes, designing of clothing, acting, hair-dressing, story-telling, and love of music’ and concluded that this was a sign of a female gender identity. This is testament to how the idea of gender dysphoria cements rigid sexist designations of appropriate behaviour for the different sexes. A boy has a flare for creative activities – he must be born wrong according to the gender scientists. These abnormalities, according to Stoller, can be detected before the child is one. Stoller reported of the first child how ‘this boy had actually shown manifestations of femininity which his mother recognized were unusual when he was less than a year old; sitting on her lap, he would look at magazines with her and stop her whenever there was a photograph of a beautiful woman, expressing intense pleasure with loud cooing sounds’. According to Stoller this is part of the proof that the child requires medical correction and is truly transsexual. Go figure." (continues)

uncommongroundmedia.com/robert-stoller-true-trans/

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3896788-Important-series-of-articles-by-Dr-Em-Sexist-History-at-the-Heart-of-the-Science-on-Transsexualism-Part-I-Benjamin-Ihlenfeld-Money-Ehrhardt

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3900484-Dr-Em-article-Sexist-History-at-the-Heart-of-the-Science-on-Transsexualism-Part-II-Robert-Stoller-True-Trans-an-ideology-which-is-antithetical-to-feminism

Datun · 28/03/2021 13:45

Dear lord. It's horrifying.

'Dr Em explores how the founding fathers of ‘scientific’ research on transgenderism/transsexualism were motivated by sexist beliefs.
The ‘science’ of the founding fathers of transgenderism/transsexualism – Harry Benjamin, John Money and Robert Stoller – are still cited and relied upon to change law, to put children on a path of sterilisation and surgery, to remove women’s rights and to argue that all women just naturally want to be treated as second class citizens.

No wonder feminists are targeted above any other group. Even those who are actually responsible for violence against trans people.

Also: from the FWS analysis Re Sandyford:

Transgendertrend has analysed the continuing increase in the number of girls referred to Tavistock, “In less than a decade there has been a 1,460% increase in referrals of boys and a staggering 5,337% increase in girls”, with girls now making up 74% of the total referrals last year.

5,337 percent. Who have all just discovered their 'innate sense of self'?

Despite the largest research study, lasting 30 years, concluding:

The brain is a unisex organ, according to a sweeping new review that found little difference between male and female white and gray matter.

They say past analysis has been clouded by neurosexism - the biased assumption that female brains are just wired differently from male brains.

'It's really not appropriate to think of the brain as coming in male-type and female- type, Eliot said, 'Just like we don't really think of the kidney or the lungs or the heart as coming in male- or female-type.'

www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9339151/amp/Largest-study-date-debunks-myth-male-female-brains-different.html

WarriorN · 28/03/2021 14:24

Just come across this, statements by Thomas Steensma, the original developer of the Dutch protocol:

https://twitter.com/will_malone/status/1366825810951213057?s=21

Dr. Thomas Steensma, who helped develop and implement the “Dutch Protocol” (the interventions of puberty blockers, followed by cross-sex-hormones), has made a series of public statements that under normal situations would be self-evident to most medical professionals:/1

He asks: “Where does the large flow of children come from who have suddenly registered for transgender care since 2013? And what is the quality of life like for this group long after sex change? There is no answer to those questions.” /2

And: "We don't know whether studies we have done in the past can still be applied to this time. Many more children are applying[for transition], and also a different type [many more girls who apply]./3

He continues: “The research on the small group of people from before 2013 may not apply to the large group that there is now. We conduct structural research in the Netherlands. But the rest of the world is blindly adopting our research." /4

Every doctor or psychologist who engages in transgender care should feel the obligation to do a good before and after measurement."/5

This follows commentary by Dr. Annelou de Vries (part of the same Dutch Protocol collaborative), reminding us that adolescents with recent-onset gender dysphoria (no childhood history of dysphoria) were not part of their study protocol./7

She writes that given uncertainties about outcomes in late presenters with no childhood history of dysphoria, there should be a renewed focus on psychological support, as hormones and surgeries may not be appropriate. /8
pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/146/4/…

OldCrone · 28/03/2021 14:41

The mechanic will go right on being sexist and from the way you tell it, none of the people present seem to have actually thought that was in any way wrong.

It's clearly pointless explaining, as I don't think Robin will ever see it.

I'm not really surprised, but it is, nonetheless, a bit of an eye-opener. Little wonder that there are so many people who have not been subjected to a life time of sexism, who see nothing wrong in medically treating children, particularly girls, who want to escape being girls.

I think Robin inadvertently highlighted an important point here about one of the reasons why so many girls and young women now identify as transmen or nonbinary.

By the time girls are teenagers, they've already become aware of how differently they're treated from boys. Their opinions are viewed as less important than those of boys and they're assumed to be ignorant of anything practical or scientific. They want out of this, and the way to do this seems to them to be to identify as something other than a girl.

RobinMoiraWhite · 28/03/2021 14:49

I'm signing off now, as I have work to do, but I did note the following from 'Datun':

-It's clearly pointless explaining, as I don't think Robin will ever see it.

I'm not really surprised, but it is, nonetheless, a bit of an eye-opener. Little wonder that there are so many people who have not been subjected to a life time of sexism, who see nothing wrong in medically treating children, particularly girls, who want to escape being girls.

I have asked a million times, what do they think causes gender dysphoria? It's like their analysis of the situation can only begin after the diagnosis. The actual reason for it is never addressed, it's glossed over. Or called something meaningless like a sense of self.'

Some years ago we gave up trying to work out why some people are gay and moved on to accepting them, integrating them and helping them live well. It is time to do that with trans individuals and stop the relentless attacks. If you can't be big enough to accept us, as most of the population do, then just leave us alone and find somewhere else to turn your efforts to helping your fellow humans.

'Bye for now.

NatalieShortman · 28/03/2021 14:53

I think we have again the two separate experiences of someone who has chosen to opt in, and those without the option to opt out. Validation is a pleasant thing when it validates what has been intentionally chosen: those who have not chosen to be treated in this way, have no escape from it and find no pleasure in being stuck with that subordinated, tedious place in life, will obviously find it rather different.

I think this is spot on. I also think it's particularly important to bear in mind that those who opt in know that they can always opt out again if it becomes too much.

But still you'll never get it right
'Cause when you're laid in bed at night
Watching roaches climb the wall
If you called your dad he could stop it all

NiceGerbil · 28/03/2021 14:55

My great long personal posts and the only thing responded to was the word awesome.

Bloody hell.

A mechanic saying look lady is odd. Did it happen in the USA? Maybe other parts of the country use it? No one would say that round here.

Also the hahaha at being patronised.
Women don't find it amusing, it pisses us off.

YY to the questions about wtf that anecdote is supposed to tell us anyway.

Floisme · 28/03/2021 15:05

What a shame Robin that you signed off without answering Notbad's very simple question about the Bell judgement:

And what’s your view? On any of the 8 criteria?

Given the number of times you've posted on this thread, and given your professional legal expertise, I find it very hard to understand how you wouldn't have formed an opinion on this.

Of course you don't have to answer if you don't want to but the silence is really very telling.

OldCrone · 28/03/2021 15:07

Some years ago we gave up trying to work out why some people are gay and moved on to accepting them, integrating them and helping them live well. It is time to do that with trans individuals and stop the relentless attacks. If you can't be big enough to accept us, as most of the population do, then just leave us alone and find somewhere else to turn your efforts to helping your fellow humans.

But being trans is nothing like being gay. We all know what 'gay' means. What is a gender identity? We don't know. Nobody can define it. How do you protect a characteristic which can't be defined? Why are children being medicated for this aspect of their personality which can't be defined? Why do you think this is OK?

If children are going to be put on a lifelong irreversible medical pathway, we should not be doing that because of a characteristic which nobody can even define, much less diagnose with objective criteria which should be close to 100% correct every time.

What was it you said? 'An innate sense of self'? There is no objectivity here, and if you can't explain it to the intelligent people posting here, do you think we're going to be convinced that a child understands what this is better than we do?

I'm happy to leave you alone. You made a choice to post here, nobody forced you to do that. I've already said I consider it your business and yours alone what you do to your body. I accept you are a transwoman.

In return think about your imposition on other people, and when you should leave them alone. Children shouldn't be medicated for non-conformity to outdated stereotypes. And you should stop claiming to speak for women.

AnyOldPrion · 28/03/2021 15:17

Some years ago we gave up trying to work out why some people are gay and moved on to accepting them, integrating them and helping them live well. It is time to do that with trans individuals and stop the relentless attacks.

There were various campaigns for acceptance during the same time period over which this was achieved.

Lesbian and gay rights impinged upon nobody else’s rights and after a long period of persuasion and reassurance, this came to be fully accepted, initially by the general population and thereafter in parliament.

Other groups which campaigned were unsuccessful as it became apparent that there were clear conflict of rights with other groups.

Only time will tell which way it will go with the current rights claims.

MichelleofzeResistance · 28/03/2021 16:37

It is time to do that with trans individuals and stop the relentless attacks. If you can't be big enough to accept us, as most of the population do, then just leave us alone and find somewhere else to turn your efforts to helping your fellow humans.

Oh for goodness sake.

Relentless attacks - aka defending rights, resisting the taking of needed sex based rights and language, resisting excluding female people from female spaces. I've never yet heard any women's group use death or rape threats in their defense of women's sex based needs and rights but I've seen relentless floods of them to women.

If you can't be big enough to accept us

If you could be big enough to accept women and their sex based needs and the reality of things they are saying about safeguarding then we wouldn't have this problem.

Women I think would dearly love to be left alone and not have to spend their lives constantly funding court cases, writing to MPs, mobilising and arguing here trying desperately to be heard. It isn't an option they are being permitted. And it fucking sucks Robin. It really, truly, to my gut, sucks.

A bit of reciprocation in your values would go a hell of a long way.

CardinalLolzy · 28/03/2021 16:53

Those stories demonstrating that men like to feel superior have definitely opened my eyes. I had never realised before!

Imagine working in the justice system and thinking that being "irked" (which apparently now means "enraged") about injustice is a bad thing.

Justhadathought · 28/03/2021 16:56

Sexism isn't funny

Or a momentary, vicarious thrill.

gardenbird48 · 28/03/2021 18:17

Some years ago we gave up trying to work out why some people are gay and moved on to accepting them, integrating them and helping them live well. It is time to do that with trans individuals and stop the relentless attacks. If you can't be big enough to accept us, as most of the population do, then just leave us alone and find somewhere else to turn your efforts to helping your fellow humans.

I am very happy to accept people as they are and would love for them to be living their best life, as long as we can maintain female only single sex spaces, services and protections.

That is my boundary. That is all I ask and I don’t think it is unreasonable.

I am very happy for other people to have their own exclusive groups, services and resources and I would like to maintain mine.

ListeningQuietly · 28/03/2021 18:25

Is a very effeminate gay boy a woman
or simply a very effeminate gay boy?

Is a tomboy a man
or simply a shovel faced lesbian to quote Ruth Davison ?

Datun · 28/03/2021 19:44

Some years ago we gave up trying to work out why some people are gay and moved on to accepting them, integrating them and helping them live well. It is time to do that with trans individuals and stop the relentless attacks. If you can't be big enough to accept us, as most of the population do, then just leave us alone and find somewhere else to turn your efforts to helping your fellow humans.

'Bye for now.

So, no answers? At all?

MichelleofzeResistance · 28/03/2021 20:02

Apparently a ticking off and a head pat is sufficient. I'm afraid though that for me it is not, and fuels my concerns more than reduces them.

nauticant · 28/03/2021 20:19

Does anyone else feel like we've had the dismissive mechanic treatment?

Datun · 28/03/2021 21:54

@nauticant

Does anyone else feel like we've had the dismissive mechanic treatment?
🤣
NiceGerbil · 28/03/2021 22:56
Grin
NiceGerbil · 28/03/2021 22:57

Liked the

I HOLD A PILOTS LICENCE

part

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 28/03/2021 23:48

@nauticant

Does anyone else feel like we've had the dismissive mechanic treatment?
GrinGrinGrin
NotBadConsidering · 29/03/2021 00:21

That’s the other thing people do, as well as ignore: deflect. And not just deflect, but twist legitimate concerns into “bigotry”.

“We are concerned about consent for puberty blockers and the long term impact on children, lack of efficacy, and negative effects.”

“Stop the relentless attacks on trans people!”

Like I said, I don’t think the children really matter to these people.

Justhadathought · 29/03/2021 10:48

I'm happy to leave you alone. You made a choice to post here, nobody forced you to do that. I've already said I consider it your business and yours alone what you do to your body. I accept you are a transwoman

In return think about your imposition on other people, and when you should leave them alone. Children shouldn't be medicated for non-conformity to outdated stereotypes. And you should stop claiming to speak for women

Good points. Both of which cut to the heart of this conflict.

gardenbird48 · 29/03/2021 10:58

@NiceGerbil

Liked the

I HOLD A PILOTS LICENCE

part

I had a friend who was a female fast jet pilot.

She received rather a lot of bad treatment based on her sex and found various barriers to completing the training because of her sex but she persisted and succeeded.

I remain very impressed with her determination and very cool job.