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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Good Law project have succeeded...

379 replies

Wandawomble · 26/03/2021 12:12

goodlawproject.org/news/tavistock-success/

OP posts:
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R0wantrees · 02/04/2021 08:36

Well it’s a case I’ve been following right from when it, sort of, launched, and I took quite an interest in it. I first read about it in The Guardian––it sounded a bit like a joke, to be honest. No one—certainly I couldn’t see any legal basis for the court to decide the matter in Keira Bell’s favor.

Sarah Philimore (Family lawyer specialising in care proceedings (where the State seeks to remove children from parents who risk causing significant harm) for The Critic:

'What does the child trans judgement mean?
Those who are invested in being ‘on the right side of history’ might like to reflect on yesterday’s judgement'

concludes:
"The case was not about whether gender dysphoria existed or that it caused serious distress – this was agreed. The issue was rather whether or not children could consent to the treatment on offer.

Perhaps sensing the winds of change, the NHS had already announced a review into such treatment

Consent is the necessary bedrock for all medical intervention. Those who lack capacity to consent – such as small children – must rely upon sensible adults to process the relevant information. Most children over 16 can consent to most things as if they were an adult; for younger children their capacity to consent has to be weighed in light of their age and understanding. A child younger than 16 with the necessary capacity may be ‘Gillick competent’ to make serious decisions. See Gillick v West Norfolk and Wisbech Area Health Authority [1986] AC 112.

It was clear that Bell, and many children like her, were victims of the prevailing orthodoxy of the ‘path of affirmation’. It is troubling to see the lengths to which some were prepared to go to preserve this path. For example, in 2019 the legal adviser to the Mermaids charity, attempted to erase entirely any distinction between very young children and those with ‘Gillick competence’ by commenting:

….someone’s gender identity, at any age, must be respected. A child identifying as trans, whether it has been submitted this is as a result of harm or not, is identifying as trans and that must be respected throughout proceedings…More often than not, if a child says they are trans, they will be trans.

Marcus Evans, now a psychoanalyst in private practice, formerly served as Consultant Psychotherapist and Associate Clinical Director of Adult and Adolescent Service at the Tavistock. In 2020 he wrote about why he resigned:

Those who advocate an unquestioning “affirmation”-based approach to trans-identified children often will claim that any delay or hesitation in assisting a child’s desired gender transition may cause irreparable psychological harm, and possibly even lead to suicide. They also typically will cite research purporting to prove that a child who transitions can expect higher levels of psychological health and life satisfaction. None of these claims align substantially with any robust data or studies in this area. Nor do they align with the cases I have encountered over decades as a psychotherapist.

Despite the climate of fear created by those who insisted on ‘no debate’ supported by threats of sacking and no-platforming, more people found the courage to voice their growing unease. Dr Heather Brunskell Evans, visiting research Fellow at King’s College London has frequently pointed out that any alleged ‘gender identity distress’ is now occurring within a cultural context that has for decades promoted the ‘fantasy’ that it is possible to become the opposite sex and denied any challenge as something inherently ‘hateful’.

To suggest a child under 13 could understand the implications of giving up their fertility is ludicrous

Such context prevents proper or even any discussion of the reality and limitations of surgical and medical interventions – for example, surgery on the female body to simulate a penis cannot create a fully functioning organ, and which is notorious for the high rate of complications.

The court in the Bell case was troubled by the failure of the Tavistock to keep proper data, particularly with regard to the number of its patients who moved from puberty blockers to cross sex hormones, or the high proportion of referred children who were on the autistic spectrum. The court commented, with delicate restraint, that this lack of data was ‘surprising’.

When considering if a child under 16 could consent, the court first examined the nature of the treatment. Given the uncertainty of its short- and long-term consequences, the limited evidence as to its efficacy, or indeed ‘quite what it is seeking to achieve’, it was rightly described as ‘experimental treatment’. Simply giving a child ‘more and more’ information about such experimental treatment, as the Tavistock did, could not enable informed consent. The court held:

The conclusion we have reached is that it is highly unlikely that a child aged 13 or under would ever be Gillick competent to give consent to being treated with PBs. In respect of children aged 14 and 15, we are also very doubtful that a child of this age could understand the long-term risks and consequences of treatment in such a way as to have sufficient understanding to give consent.

Some of those in court who heard the earlier submissions made, reported feeling deeply troubled to hear how the risks of such treatment – which include loss of adult sexual functioning and infertility – were explained to the children seeking it. For the year 2019/20, 26 of the 161 children referred were 13 or younger. The youngest was 10 years old.

For children 16 or over, the situation is different, and they are presumed to have capacity. However, the court said something interesting, touching on the potential for future actions in tort and the spectre of damages, which may operate to concentrate the minds of clinicians a little more effectively when considering the reality of their patient’s consent:

We do however recognise that in the light of the evidence that has emerged, and the terms of this judgment, clinicians may well consider that it is not appropriate to move to treatment, such as PBs or CSH, without the involvement of the court. We consider that it would be appropriate for clinicians to involve the court in any case where there may be any doubt as to whether the long-term best interests of a 16 or 17 year old would be served by the clinical interventions at issue in this case.

Perhaps sensing the winds of change, the NHS had already announced a review into such treatment on 22 September, led by Dr Hilary Cass OBE, former President of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. The review intends to be wide-ranging in scope, looking into several aspects of gender identity services, with a focus on how care can be improved for children and young people. It will also set out workforce recommendations for specialist healthcare professionals and examine the recent rise in the number of children seeking treatment. It sounds wonderful. It is, however, at least a decade late.

Those who are particularly invested in being ‘on the right side of history’ might like to reflect on the judgement yesterday and consider what side of the line they are now on. It is too late for Ms Bell, who will have to live with the consequences of the medical and surgical treatment adults were happy to push upon her. But for the generations of children to come, it is hoped that now we will see decisions made in their best interests, rather than to affirm the ideology of adults or to justify the funding of their charities.

To suggest that any child under 13 could realistically understand the implications for their adult self of giving up their fertility or ability to orgasm is ludicrous. The judgment is an extremely welcome corrective to what for years has appeared to be a wholesale abnegation of adult responsibilities towards children. No doubt many responsible believed they were doing the right thing; to promote inclusivity and diversity and ‘being kind’.

I hope they will read this judgment with no small sense of shame and a resolution to do better. When what is under discussion is the lives and bodies of our children, then we must have debate. "
thecritic.co.uk/what-does-the-child-trans-judgement-mean/

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yourhairiswinterfire · 02/04/2021 08:47

And now, a sort of fallen hero for what we all regard as the work that she’s done to roll back trans rights, to empower transphobia and transphobes in domestic public discourse. She comes from a very particular place, and I don’t know whether this is mirrored around the world, but in England there is a very, very dominant…strand of feminism.

A judge upholding the law is anti-trans? Concluding that children can't consent to sterilisation means the judge is 'empowering transphobes'? Is he serious?! Sounds like he's on thin ice there, let's hope the judge doesn't see his comments...

The ruling wasn't because of a 'dominant strand of feminism', it was common sense, safeguarding of children. Salty at the male judge that was involved in the decision too, is he, or just the female?

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NecessaryScene1 · 02/04/2021 08:54

Is he serious?! Sounds like he's on thin ice there, let's hope the judge doesn't see his comments...

Archive of the JM conversation - as I can imagine that getting edited when someone thinks a bit more clearly.

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R0wantrees · 02/04/2021 09:01

The finding was rooted in parts of UK law that Jolyon Maugham appears lacking in awareness of, medical ethics and Child Protection.

Maugham had "a largely court based practice, predominantly in the field of direct tax for the taxpayer. He is skilled in the management of the reputational issues of corporate and individual tax conduct. He has particular expertise litigating employment taxation, intangible property, tax and public law and tax avoidance transactions"
www.legal500.com/firms/9300-chambers-of-timothy-brennan-qc/9300-london-england/lawyers/543363-jolyon-maugham-qc/

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NecessaryScene1 · 02/04/2021 09:08

Another detached from reality nugget:

And although that which people abroad see of the BBC is largely positive, the content that the BBC serves up to its domestic audience is very different and is very transphobic.

Confused

The only thing I can imagine that being based on is Glinner getting a small amount of airtime, and the Newsnight Tavistock reports. What else is there for him to possibly complain about?

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R0wantrees · 02/04/2021 09:25

Well it’s a case I’ve been following right from when it, sort of, launched, and I took quite an interest in it. I first read about it in The Guardian––it sounded a bit like a joke, to be honest. No one—certainly I couldn’t see any legal basis for the court to decide the matter in Keira Bell’s favor.



From the Bell v NHS Tavistock finding:

(extract)
119. In determining the level of understanding that the child needs to have to consent to PBs, Mr Hyam attached considerable importance to the decision of the Supreme Court in Montgomery v Lancashire Health Board. That case concerned an action in negligence brought by a mother on behalf of her child. The child was disabled as a result of complications during delivery and the mother argued that she should have been advised as to the possibility of delivery by elective caesarean. The central issue for present purposes was the information that the doctor needed to have given the patient in order
to establish that she had given informed consent for the treatment.


120. Lord Kerr set out the requirements placed on a doctor in providing information on risks of injury from treatment in the following terms at para 87:
“An adult person of sound mind is entitled to decide which, if any, of the available forms of treatment to undergo, and her consent must be obtained before treatment interfering with her bodily integrity is undertaken. The doctor is therefore under a duty to take reasonable care to ensure that the patient is aware of any material risks involved in any recommended treatment, and of any reasonable alternative or variant treatments. The test of materiality is whether, in the circumstances of the particular case, a reasonable person in the patient’s position would be likely to attach significance to the risk, or the doctor is or should reasonably be aware that the particular patient would be likely to attach significance to it.” (continues)

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Bell-v-Tavistock-Judgment.pdf

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R0wantrees · 02/04/2021 09:27

Apologies for formatting failure.
Should read,

The central issue for present purposes was the information that the doctor needed to have given the patient in order to establish that she had given informed consent for the treatment

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DrudgeJedd · 02/04/2021 10:50

If I had a very sporty gnc child I would be doing my best to keep them away from bone thinning treatments, not making a bloody crusade about it.

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Datun · 02/04/2021 10:56

Well it’s a case I’ve been following right from when it, sort of, launched, and I took quite an interest in it. I first read about it in The Guardian––it sounded a bit like a joke, to be honest. No one—certainly I couldn’t see any legal basis for the court to decide the matter in Keira Bell’s favor.

A joke?

That's rather terrifying, to be honest.

Because even IF this man is utterly convinced that some children need these drugs, the fact that they render them sterile, with irreversible side-effects, will compromise their sex life, with little or zero orgasmic capacity, and turn them into a medical patient for life, doesn't deter him from his opinion that questioning that is nothing more than a 'joke'.

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WildishBambino · 02/04/2021 11:15

Maugham on Rowling:

And what I was particularly angry with J.K. Rowling about, somebody who I’ve spoken to privately in the past and previously had a good relationship with was that I thought that she weaponized in a rather mischievous way the abuse that she received.

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DrudgeJedd · 02/04/2021 11:16

He's going to end up being reported to the BRB at this rate, his comments about one of the judges being biased is really unprofessional. The bit about commissioning an investigation into all of the witnesses is either his usual self aggrandisement (he just did a Google search of their names) or a bit threatening if he actually paid someone (with GLP funds??) to investigate them.

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NecessaryScene1 · 02/04/2021 11:16

Twitter thread about that JM piece:

twitter.com/SVPhillimore/status/1377871589493063684

Nothing reveals more clearly the poverty and dangers of our current ‘’debate’ than this conversation between Grace Lavery and Jolyon Maugham.

Let’s examine the misrepresentations.

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WildishBambino · 02/04/2021 11:19

Yeah, that 'jus saying' comment about the judge;

I’m not saying she’s a transphobe. I’m just saying that she is in that demographic.

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nauticant · 02/04/2021 11:46

He's going to end up being reported to the BRB at this rate

I think he's pre-empted this by making his professional status moot:

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/barrister-jolyon-maugham-blacklisted-allen-overy-tweeting-killing-fox-b919879.html

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ListeningQuietly · 02/04/2021 11:52

Justhadanother
Indeed, Shiloh Jolie-Pitt dressed as a boy for many years and had the same haircut as her brothers.
It would appear that she has now decided she is a girl.

WELL DONE to Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie that amidst the rancour of their divorce they allowed Shiloh to be herself and did not weaponise her choices.

If only other families could see that medicalising short term choices
may well destroy their children, not save them.

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NecessaryScene1 · 02/04/2021 11:56

He has left his chambers to run the Good Law Project, but as Sarah said in a tweet:

He is still a barrister with a practising certificate and he needs to abide by the Code of Conduct which I do not think he has done here.

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/04/2021 12:01

That interview Shock glad it's been archived.

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Datun · 02/04/2021 12:01

@WildishBambino

Maugham on Rowling:

And what I was particularly angry with J.K. Rowling about, somebody who I’ve spoken to privately in the past and previously had a good relationship with was that I thought that she weaponized in a rather mischievous way the abuse that she received.

Of course. He's just following the tediously predictable Rules of Misogyny.

He's angry with her for talking about a man sexually assaulting her.


4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.

9th rule of misogyny: Men always know the "real reasons" for everything women do and say.

10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it males men look bad.

11th rule of misogyny: Basic pattern recognition skills are cruel and evil when they hurt men's feelings.
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PronounssheRa · 02/04/2021 12:17

He left his Chambers under something of a cloud I think, which ended in him blocking his former head of Chambers on twitter.

Good Law project have succeeded...
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yourhairiswinterfire · 02/04/2021 12:18

What did the Tavistock think they were being taken to court for?! It wasn't ''all of a sudden'', they had plenty of time to prepare. There was enough time for Keira to crowdfund, so there was enough time for them to get their shit together. They weren't just dragged into court randomly one day Confused

They didn't fail because they took the 'wrong evidence', their evidence was just shit. They couldn't even give the stats on the number of children they treat/treated that have autism. You'd think it might have crossed their minds that they'd be asked for this info, considering the case was brought by the mother of an autistic teenager.

He's also complaining that judges aren't medical experts. Whilst sulking that Stonewall and Mermaids weren't allowed to intervene. Are they medical experts? The parents consenting for their children, are they all medical experts?

Such a bizarre take.

Good Law project have succeeded...
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Thingybob · 02/04/2021 16:27

Jolyon has tweeted about the obligation to highlight judicial biases

twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1377948122844958727

He also has a thread on the NICE PB review and the BBCs reporting of it. I'm not sure I understand what his objections are but I'm pleased he's at least looked at the NICE evidence.

twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1377916230678499328

Good Law project have succeeded...
Good Law project have succeeded...
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nauticant · 02/04/2021 16:32

One might think he's been alerted to the comments on this thread and is now doing some post-facto justification of his imprudent criticisms.

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R0wantrees · 02/04/2021 17:03

Sarah Phillimore Substack article,
'Jive Talkin'
Just what can we do when people in positions of power and authority keep misrepresenting the truth persistently and deliberately?'
(extract)
"On the morning of Friday 2nd April I awoke to find some of my Whats App groups more than usually aggrieved by this Substack post. “The Divisional Court Brought to That Decision a Series of Preconceptions about Gender’: A Conversation with Jolyon Maugham, QC”. This was a conversation between Mr Maugham and an American based academic who does not appear to have any qualifications in areas of law or medicine but specialises in “Victorian literature and culture, trans feminist studies, and contemporary popular culture” at Berkeley University in California.

As it was no longer April Fool’s Day I began to read with a weary sense of dread and immediately even my low expectations were met. I tweeted my concerns about the persistent and deliberate dishonesty contained within, and found a high level of immediate engagement. You can read the thread here.
archive.is/D6ZRq

But because Grace Lavery’s post represents a really serious level of dishonesty about a High Court Judgment, scaffolded by defamatory attacks on the judiciary and a solicitor, I thought it might help other truth seekers and truth pushers consider what was claimed against what actually happened. (continues)

Conclusions
But regardless. To come to court without the ability to evidence what you are saying is nobody’s fault but your own. I suggest that no one who reads this judgment and the pages and pages of careful analysis of all the evidence put before it, could possibly agree with Maugham’s criticisms of the court’s approach to the available evidence. As he said:

I’m a practicing Queen’s Counsel, so I’m a practicing trial lawyer, and so I have to choose my language carefully.

So I have to assume, very sadly, that the deliberate misrepresentations of Mr Maugham in this interview were not made out of carelessness or casual language but chosen. He has used his status as Queen’s Counsel to give his arguments a credibility that they do not deserve. He has made personal attacks on a serving Judge and a solicitor in a matter that is due before the Court of Appeal in a few months. He has made no child any safer. Quite the reverse. He has continued to fan the flames of obfuscation and simple, deliberate lies that have so polluted any attempt to have sensible discussions about any of this.

He is a disgrace."
sarahphillimore.substack.com/p/jive-talkin

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yourhairiswinterfire · 02/04/2021 17:06

Isn't the judge he singled out from the Bell case, Mrs Justice Lieven, the same judge in GLP's parental consent case?

But he's only complaining about one of the judgements...🤔

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WeeBisom · 02/04/2021 18:37

Wow, he really did just drag the only female judge didn't he? A little point about bias in judges. Judicial bias is a special term of art, and it refers to a case where a judge has, through bias, pre-determined the outcome of a case and shuts her eyes and ears to contrary evidence. It is a serious accusation to make because it makes the judgment automatically unsafe. A case had to be sent back from the Supreme Court last year to be entirely re-tried because the judge was biased towards the claimant. And when you read that case it really is extreme - he was saying things like 'you're a horrible man, and I can't wait to judge against you and see you go bankrupt," or "I don't want to hear another word, you just lie about everything." In this context, accusing a judge of reaching a decision through bias isn't a small thing - it's essentially saying the judge was not guided in her decision by the facts and evidence but by pre-conceived ideas and would have made that same decision no matter what. And he has strongly implied that she reached this decision because she is of a certain demographic, and could be a certain kind of feminist. finally, he's once again showed he doesn't really get this area of law by saying that he 'doesn't understand' why judges feel they are qualified to make these decisions over loving parents. He did tax law for a long time, so surely he is a aware that not all judges are tax experts. The reason judges get to make these decisions is they are trained to apply the law, and the law says the best interests of the child are to be taken into account. They are good at balancing the various considerations in a neutral way. If he doesn't appreciate why it's legitimate for judges to make these kinds of decisions, why is he trying to even get into this area of law?

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