Good Law project have succeeded...

[Wandawomble]

goodlawproject.org/news/tavistock-success/

Well sure but that's kind of a different matter

There was another thread where this was mentioned I believe.

Some years ago we gave up trying to work out why some people are gay and moved on to accepting them, integrating them and helping them live well. It is time to do that with trans individuals and stop the relentless attacks.

Frontiers in Psychiatry, 29 March 2021
A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder
Devita Singh, Susan J. Bradley and Kenneth J. Zucker

(extract)
"This study reports follow-up data on the largest sample to date of boys clinic-referred for gender dysphoria (n = 139) with regard to gender identity and sexual orientation. In childhood, the boys were assessed at a mean age of 7.49 years (range, 3.33–12.99) at a mean year of 1989 and followed-up at a mean age of 20.58 years (range, 13.07–39.15) at a mean year of 2002. In childhood, 88 (63.3%) of the boys met the DSM-III, III-R, or IV criteria for gender identity disorder; the remaining 51 (36.7%) boys were subthreshold for the criteria. At follow-up, gender identity/dysphoria was assessed via multiple methods and the participants were classified as either persisters or desisters. Sexual orientation was ascertained for both fantasy and behavior and then dichotomized as either biphilic/androphilic or gynephilic. Of the 139 participants, 17 (12.2%) were classified as persisters and the remaining 122 (87.8%) were classified as desisters. Data on sexual orientation in fantasy were available for 129 participants: 82 (63.6%) were classified as biphilic/androphilic, 43 (33.3%) were classified as gynephilic, and 4 (3.1%) reported no sexual fantasies. For sexual orientation in behavior, data were available for 108 participants: 51 (47.2%) were classified as biphilic/androphilic, 29 (26.9%) were classified as gynephilic, and 28 (25.9%) reported no sexual behaviors. Multinomial logistic regression examined predictors of outcome for the biphilic/androphilic persisters and the gynephilic desisters, with the biphilic/androphilic desisters as the reference group. Compared to the reference group, the biphilic/androphilic persisters tended to be older at the time of the assessment in childhood, were from a lower social class background, and, on a dimensional composite of sex-typed behavior in childhood were more gender-variant. The biphilic/androphilic desisters were more gender-variant compared to the gynephilic desisters. Boys clinic-referred for gender identity concerns in childhood had a high rate of desistance and a high rate of a biphilic/androphilic sexual orientation. The implications of the data for current models of care for the treatment of gender dysphoria in children are discussed." (continues)

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full

Transgender Trend
"Important new study from Singh, Bradley & @ ZUCKERKJ
on gender identity & sexual orientation of clinic-referred pre-pubertal boys. Largest sample to date. Follow-up mean age 20.58 yrs. Findings: 12.2% persistence 87.8 % desistance; 63.6% gay."
twitter.com/Transgendertrd/status/1376453938992578560

From the judgement:
"XY was born a boy and is now aged 15. I have witness statements from both parents and from XY, and XY wrote me a letter. The parents are separated but live close to each other and XY spends considerable time with both parents. I have not heard oral evidence, but I have no reason not to fully accept what is said in the written statements and I rely on those statements in the summary of the facts I set out below.
XY came out to her parents as transgender when she was 10 years old in Year 5. According to AB, XY had always only been interested in girls' toys and clothes. When at primary school she, for a period, tried to conform to a more "male" stereotype but she was utterly miserable, became very withdrawn, and was shy and unhappy, particularly at school.
She came out to her parents about being transgender after reading a book where one of the main characters was transgender. According to her mother, once she started going to school as a girl her confidence grew, and she became much happier. The parents first made contact with the GIDS Unit when XY was 10 years old. XY has now fully transitioned socially in all aspects of her life including legal paperwork. She changed her name by deed poll in 2016."

As is demonstrated by findings of the study, a significant percentage of the young boys identified as having 'gender dysphoria' in childhood would in fact grow up to be gay men.

Came out as transgender at 10 YEARS OLD. This always blows my mind. Still at primary school. Doesn’t know anything about adult sexual relationships. Doesn’t understand what being gay is. As parents are separated presumably some discord in the home. What about just letting XY be? Let XY play with whatever toys they want, without labelling or comment?

Holly Branson decided she was a boy when she was about seven.
She cut her hair, she wore boys clothes.
Her parents let her be who he wanted to be with no pressure.

When her (rather famous) father got married, she is wearing a suit.

Some time in her teens she decided she was in fact a girl.
She later got married and has had multiple children.

Her parents were not homophobic.
They did not "enable"
They accepted their child

Many things about Richard Branson wind me up
but his handling of a trans child was exemplary.

I've just seen this from a trans person I follow on twitter (from Sophie XY's bio - 'I do not identify as a woman, I identify with women' - I think Sophie is a transsexual but has an updated bio to support women's rights)

I’ve been on hormones for years and I can say categorically no child is capable of understanding and consenting to this process. Even as an adult it is difficult to navigate and be prepared for. Especially the downplayed possible consequences.

Just ask my pituitary tumor.

Sophie has had some very worrying health issues recently that seem to be down to the use of cross sex hormones. We need more publicity about the health risks that people are taking on.

ListeningQuietly totally agree re. Richard Branson's daughter - he was spot on!!

Let kids be kids.

I read a really sad account on twitter today about the 13 yr old niece of a man who confided in him that she may be bisexual (he is the 'gay uncle' as he calls himself so her go to person for that sort of thing).

She had mentioned it at school and experienced a bit of bullying so she went to her Social Services teacher (who I think was also the LGBTQ ambassador).

He told her that she was too young to be thinking about her sexuality like that (I do agree with that) but then told her that it might mean she is trans and even though she has told her uncle she is not suffering from any dysphoria, is happy presenting as a girl and crucially does not have any desire to be a boy, this teacher has suggested that she adopt a 'boy' name and tell her friends to use he/him pronouns.

I'm guessing that in the current climate that will remove the bullying, she will feel happier and be encouraged by this teacher that it confirms that yes she is definitely trans and should 'become a boy'.

Who was accusing us of hysteria over 'transing' children again??

@R0wantrees

Some years ago we gave up trying to work out why some people are gay and moved on to accepting them, integrating them and helping them live well. It is time to do that with trans individuals and stop the relentless attacks.

Frontiers in Psychiatry, 29 March 2021
A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder
Devita Singh, Susan J. Bradley and Kenneth J. Zucker

(extract)
"This study reports follow-up data on the largest sample to date of boys clinic-referred for gender dysphoria (n = 139) with regard to gender identity and sexual orientation. In childhood, the boys were assessed at a mean age of 7.49 years (range, 3.33–12.99) at a mean year of 1989 and followed-up at a mean age of 20.58 years (range, 13.07–39.15) at a mean year of 2002. In childhood, 88 (63.3%) of the boys met the DSM-III, III-R, or IV criteria for gender identity disorder; the remaining 51 (36.7%) boys were subthreshold for the criteria. At follow-up, gender identity/dysphoria was assessed via multiple methods and the participants were classified as either persisters or desisters. Sexual orientation was ascertained for both fantasy and behavior and then dichotomized as either biphilic/androphilic or gynephilic. Of the 139 participants, 17 (12.2%) were classified as persisters and the remaining 122 (87.8%) were classified as desisters. Data on sexual orientation in fantasy were available for 129 participants: 82 (63.6%) were classified as biphilic/androphilic, 43 (33.3%) were classified as gynephilic, and 4 (3.1%) reported no sexual fantasies. For sexual orientation in behavior, data were available for 108 participants: 51 (47.2%) were classified as biphilic/androphilic, 29 (26.9%) were classified as gynephilic, and 28 (25.9%) reported no sexual behaviors. Multinomial logistic regression examined predictors of outcome for the biphilic/androphilic persisters and the gynephilic desisters, with the biphilic/androphilic desisters as the reference group. Compared to the reference group, the biphilic/androphilic persisters tended to be older at the time of the assessment in childhood, were from a lower social class background, and, on a dimensional composite of sex-typed behavior in childhood were more gender-variant. The biphilic/androphilic desisters were more gender-variant compared to the gynephilic desisters. Boys clinic-referred for gender identity concerns in childhood had a high rate of desistance and a high rate of a biphilic/androphilic sexual orientation. The implications of the data for current models of care for the treatment of gender dysphoria in children are discussed." (continues)

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full

Transgender Trend
"Important new study from Singh, Bradley & @ ZUCKERKJ
on gender identity & sexual orientation of clinic-referred pre-pubertal boys. Largest sample to date. Follow-up mean age 20.58 yrs. Findings: 12.2% persistence 87.8 % desistance; 63.6% gay."
twitter.com/Transgendertrd/status/1376453938992578560

From the judgement:
"XY was born a boy and is now aged 15. I have witness statements from both parents and from XY, and XY wrote me a letter. The parents are separated but live close to each other and XY spends considerable time with both parents. I have not heard oral evidence, but I have no reason not to fully accept what is said in the written statements and I rely on those statements in the summary of the facts I set out below.
XY came out to her parents as transgender when she was 10 years old in Year 5. According to AB, XY had always only been interested in girls' toys and clothes. When at primary school she, for a period, tried to conform to a more "male" stereotype but she was utterly miserable, became very withdrawn, and was shy and unhappy, particularly at school.
She came out to her parents about being transgender after reading a book where one of the main characters was transgender. According to her mother, once she started going to school as a girl her confidence grew, and she became much happier. The parents first made contact with the GIDS Unit when XY was 10 years old. XY has now fully transitioned socially in all aspects of her life including legal paperwork. She changed her name by deed poll in 2016."

As is demonstrated by findings of the study, a significant percentage of the young boys identified as having 'gender dysphoria' in childhood would in fact grow up to be gay men.

Pleeeese

Dont try to suggest that Zucker has an ounce of credibility.

Some very interesting posts on this thread about Zucker.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4205478-Zucker-study-A-Follow-Up-Study-of-Boys-With-Gender-Identity-Disorder

Dont try to suggest that Zucker has an ounce of credibility.

I look forward to your detailed analysis of the data in the paper to explain why you don’t reach the same conclusion as the three authors, Robin. Should be easy for you, being a barrister with a pilot’s license and all.

How interesting on a thread where sexism seems to be a constant theme that a pp ignores the first two authors of a significant paper, Devita Singh and Susan J. Bradley.

Dr Devita Singh
CLINICIAN
"I received my doctoral degree in school and clinical child psychology from the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education of the University of Toronto. I am registered as a psychologist with the College of Psychologists of Ontario to provide services for children, adolescents, adults, and families. I am a member of the Canadian Psychological Association and the Ontario Psychological Association. I also hold two adjunct positions at Western University, in the departments of psychology and psychiatry. In recent years, I have held the positions of vice president and president of the London Regional Psychological Association. I have provided psychological services in a number of settings in London and Toronto, including the Children’s Hospital at London Health Sciences Centre, the Child and Parent Resource Institute (CPRI), the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH), and various school boards.

I have been practicing at McKenzie Psychology since 2013. I work with children, adolescents, adults, and families with a variety of emotional, behavioural, and relational challenges. This includes mood and anxiety disorders, attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, gender dysphoria, autism spectrum disorder, trauma and attachment disturbances, behavioural and relational difficulties, and struggles with identity development. My clinical services include diagnostic clarification and psychotherapy. I also provide counselling for parents as part of fostering their child’s social and emotional development, and assessment of learning disabilities.

It is of utmost importance to me to create a strong and secure therapeutic relationship in which patients feel understood and can engage in meaningful change. More personally, I am inspired each day by my patients and their resolve to grow and to overcome their personal challenges."
mckenziepsychology.ca/devita-singh/

Susan Jane Bradley (born 1940) is a Canadian psychiatrist best known for her work on gender identity disorder in children. She has written many journal articles and books, including Gender Identity Disorder and Psychosexual Problems in Children and Adolescents (with Kenneth Zucker) and Affect Regulation and the Development of Psychopathology. Bradley was Chair of the DSM-IV Subcommittee on Gender Disorders.

Bradley served as Head of the Division of Child Psychiatry and was Psychiatrist-in-Chief at the Hospital for Sick Children and was consultant psychiatrist at the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry. She is a Professor Emerita in the Department of Psychiatry at University of Toronto and a fellow of the Royal College of Physicians."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Bradley

Hmm...who to trust...two extremely experienced female professionals, whose data is available to me to read/assess, or random trans ladies on the interwebs who haven't yet told me why said data is unreliable?

BlackWave the highly qualified female authors of the article were ignored entirely.
As ever in adult discussions it is more productive to play the ball not the male player.

Robin ‘Zucker has no credibility’

On the other hand when he was removed from CAMHS and his clinic shut down, 500 experienced clinicians and researchers signed a letter in his support. He sued for wrongful dismissal and won and was awarded several hundred thousand dollars in compensation.

According to AB, XY had always only been interested in girls' toys and clothes. When at primary school she, for a period, tried to conform to a more "male" stereotype but she was utterly miserable, became very withdrawn

There is something so fundamental here. It’s society, not biology, that labels toys as being for girls or boys. As a child I played a lot with Lego which was a unisex toy in those days with red and white bricks. It’s now a gendered toy clearly marketed to girls or boys. As a child I also longed for a a train set - in fact I still love them now - because they were fun. So what? None of these are a marker of my inner female or maleness, We’ve been here before. Victorian women who wanted the vote, to ride a bike, to be treated equally were routinely treated as unnatural and masculine.

Gender stereotypes are not reality - they are rigid assumptions and beliefs that are limiting for all.

According to AB, XY had always only been interested in girls' toys and clothes. When at primary school she, for a period, tried to conform to a more "male" stereotype but she was utterly miserable, became very withdrawn

Indeed. If kids clothes, toys and activities were 'gender neutral', would any kids think that they were trans?

If so, how would they tell?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4207281-NICE-Evidence-Review-for-Use-of-Puberty-Blockers-for-GD-Now-Released

This might scupper JM's master plan

That depends whether JM's plan is to prevail in court or simply to farm "injustices". I see the Good Law Project as a campaigning organisation mostly concerned with establishing their narratives in the minds of the public.

@NotBadConsidering

Dont try to suggest that Zucker has an ounce of credibility.

I look forward to your detailed analysis of the data in the paper to explain why you don’t reach the same conclusion as the three authors, Robin. Should be easy for you, being a barrister with a pilot’s license and all.

There are some obvious problems even from the extract (and there are others when you read more of the paper).

I see a desister rate of 87.8% (122) and persister rate of 12.2% (17) is getting quoted a lot. However, what does desister/persister mean? The extract does not make this clear but the paper suggests that 17 is the number of participants who were diagnosed with GID at follow-up. However:

"In childhood, 88 (63.3%) of the boys met the DSM-III, III-R, or IV criteria for gender identity disorder; the remaining 51 (36.7%) boys were subthreshold for the criteria."

This means someone who was NOT diagnosed with GID at first evaluation and was NOT diagnosed with GID at second evaluation would be counted as a desister and there are up to 51 of them. Surely they should have been excluded from the percentages calculated and by including children who did not even have GID to begin with (so can't be said to have desisted from it), it is hard to unpick.

The biggest problem however with referring to this study in this thread is that the study does not attempt to identify the age at which a diagnosis of GID is very likely to be persistent. There are huge ranges of ages in this sample (3.33 - 12.99) for first evaluation and (13.07 - 39.15) for the second evaluation. Someone could argue that from 13 (or some other age) onwards a diagnosis of GID is very likely to persist and so medical treatment is ok. This study does not lend any support to this view but it does not challenge it either.

Finally in a similar vein to the comments on Zucker caution is required due to when the evaluations took place. From the paper the first evaluations took place (1975-2004) and second evaluations (1986-2011). Often brutal conversion therapy attempts were sadly common in the 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s, which is where this study has drawn it's sample from. Without more information on the "treatment" of the 88 children who were diagnosed with GID on first evaluation (and even the 51 who were not) the result of 17 should be treated with caution.

Excellent decision.

NICE has just published their reports on Puberty Blockers and Gender Affirming Hormones. See other thread. Conclusion - the evidence that either of these treatments works is very very low....has JM been fighting for the right to be prescribed a treatment that doesn't work?

NICE has just published their reports on Puberty Blockers and Gender Affirming Hormones. See other thread. Conclusion - the evidence that either of these treatments works is very very low....has JM been fighting for the right to be prescribed a treatment that doesn't work?

A treatment that NICE judges not to work and one that was assessed as representing unsafe practice for treating children in an evidence-base BMJ review two years' ago?

Grace Lavery conversation with Jolyon Maugham, QC

On a pink background, obviously.

Not hugely insightful. Main impression I get is that JM isn't thinking very deeply, but believes that he is.

He's starting from the assumption of bad faith in his opponents, and trying to pick holes in the bad faith.

He sounds a bit like a conspiracy theorist, and this thinking is encouraged because his mental model of the world doesn't fit reality, so the only possible explanation for the inexplicable things is bad actors:

Well it’s a case I’ve been following right from when it, sort of, launched, and I took quite an interest in it. I first read about it in The Guardian––it sounded a bit like a joke, to be honest. No one—certainly I couldn’t see any legal basis for the court to decide the matter in Keira Bell’s favor. And, indeed, I took advice from a leading public law lawyer, I mean, formal advice, as it happens, and, her view too was that the case was dead in the water. As time went on, I got more and more nervous about it because the court seemed to be behaving in ways that I just couldn’t understand. I didn’t understand why none of the organizations or individuals from the trans community who sought to intervene in the case were given permission to do so. I couldn’t understand why the court was adopting such a relaxed stance in relation to the evidence that was being produced by Keira—evidence that was from quite weird marginalized figures in the medical establishment, by and large. Where it was from more mainstream figures they were speaking outside their area of expertise.

Oh, and he's not saying the judge is a transphobe:

And the judge who is believed to have written that judgement—a judge called Natalie Lieven—doesn’t come from that background. She is simultaneously a hero amongst the Good Law Project’s overwhelmingly female staff team for the work that she’s done as a judge protecting the right to an abortion. And now, a sort of fallen hero for what we all regard as the work that she’s done to roll back trans rights, to empower transphobia and transphobes in domestic public discourse. She comes from a very particular place, and I don’t know whether this is mirrored around the world, but in England there is a very, very dominant…strand of feminism. Not dominant numerically but dominant because it’s a feminism of privilege that is deeply opposed to trans rights. And that demographic is the demographic that she fits perfectly in. I’m not saying she’s a transphobe. I’m just saying that she is in that demographic.

Well it’s a case I’ve been following right from when it, sort of, launched, and I took quite an interest in it. I first read about it in The Guardian––it sounded a bit like a joke, to be honest. No one—certainly I couldn’t see any legal basis for the court to decide the matter in Keira Bell’s favor.

Marina Wheeler QC ( barrister specialising in public law, including human rights, and is a member of the Bar Disciplinary Tribunal. She divorced Alexander De Pfeffel Johnson, this was finalised Nov 2020) summary of the Bell vs Tavistock case for 'UK Human Rights Blog'

Concludes:
"Comment

On a number of occasions, within its Judgment, the Court expressed its “surprise” at the absence of data necessary to assess the impact and efficacy of the treatment provided. Reading this put me in mind of the recently-published Cumberlege Review, First Do No Harm, into the tragic consequences of three well-intentioned medical interventions. One, the vaginal mesh, was prescribed to women to relieve pelvic organ prolapse and urinary incontinence. It helped many but others suffered decades of excruciating pain and life-changing side-effects. This was due in part to the system “flying blind” – relevant data about the impact treatment was not collated so the experience of this patient group was never systematically analysed and acted upon. Innovation in medicine is good, the Review concluded. The desire to relieve suffering is right. But where the effect of treatment is irreversible and profound, caution is necessary to avoid inadvertently causing harm. As I read it, the Court in Bell v Tavistock were conveying a similar message."

ListeningQuietly totally agree re. Richard Branson's daughter - he was spot on

Wasn't this a similar case with one of Angelina Jolie's children. Dressed in boyish clothes etc until after puberty, now dressing in a more girly way etc.

Refreshing for an American celebrity to deal with it in such a natural way, rather than feeling forced to conform to to the trans narrative so dominant in that culture.