Good Law project have succeeded...

[Wandawomble]

goodlawproject.org/news/tavistock-success/

Also had a couple. Bear with me. This post is v personal.

I was born with a physical birth defect that wasn't realised until I was about 3. Before that when I was in pain my rather Victorian parents im guessing thought I was making a fuss etc.

Over the years it slowly worsened. It was an issue with my legs that meant I would occasionally collapse on the floor in massive pain.

My parents had connections in the medical world and were keen to get me fixed, as it were. They were told that it was no way until I had stopped growing (ish) IE puberty (that's not a point about this topic it's just what they said).

So it was pain, difference, doctors, wait. Then we can think about it.

In that time there were X-rays, consultations etc.

Anyway come 12 I think a doc said he would be prepared to try and fix me up. After consultations that I got taken out of school for. X-ray after x-ray. Loads of people prodding poking etc.

At some point in that process, and I'm nearly 50 now and being honest. As a child who could not do xyz like their friends. Who was in huge pain intermittently. I liked the poking and prodding. I liked the x-rays.

I was different in a way that meant it hurt and I couldn't do stuff. In hospital I was the centre of attention. I was taken out of school. It was a serious thing.

Anyway in the end a surgeon said yeah. It would be experimental ish. There were no guarantees. I could end up worse off or better off. It would be a long process.

I was all for it. Given the above I'm sure it's not hard to see why.

So I was in a specialist children's hospital in London. Honestly. It was a great time. I was given attention. I was with other children who had serious issues. We made friends. We were in and out of surgery. Ward rounds, x-rays, physio. I felt really. With people like me. Looked after. Special somehow. Different but in a good way rather than different on the outside.

So in and out, multiple surgeries, failed, redone, all sorts. That was my life 12 or 13 to 15ish.

After I was released my 6 monthly and then 12 monthly reviews at hosp in town were something I anticipated.

In the end. I had no idea what I was consenting to really. I had no concept of being, 18 or 20 etc. I was very young.

Was it the right thing to do? No idea.

Once you're in that situation then you go with it. And how can a child even begin to guage this stuff? No experience. Etc.

I suppose what I want to get across from this is that IME (and it is just my experience). If you are different, and in pain. The attention, care. Tests, checks. Concern. Serious conversations. I liked them. They made me feel accepted important cared for. Instead of different and in pain.

I loved X-rays I reckon I've had 300- 600 in my life.

So for all the conversations about consent and children etc. I thought maybe this very personal story might be of interest.

tl;dr

In blunt terms. Sunk cost fallacy is a consideration here.

And I think I'm probably not on track for the thread but anyway.

I always felt like a person. Since I was a small child. I noticed when I was very frequently reminded I was a girl. Like all the bloody time.

As a result I was a feminist before I even knew the word.

I continued my life as a person. Not because i decided it but because that's what I was. All the time, all my life. All the bloody time I was going about being a person and I'd get xyz to remind me that no you're a girl.

Having said that I was female and heterosexual, so it's not like when I got to teenage years I didn't want boys to notice I was a girl

But it wasn't about sex (body type), really (but sometimes that I'll get to in a sec). It was about the nature of compliments. Hair. Dress. I couldn't give a fuck. Assumptions about what I would like to do. About my.. demeanor. I suppose. I hated it tbh. Spent a lot of time glaring. I was a slight girl with the things that mean 'pretty' in our culture. I was supposed to be pleased and simper and I don't even know at the constant positive comments about my looks. Nope. Ask me what I'm interested in. What I'm reading. Anything FFS.

'
But it wasn't about sex (body type), really (but sometimes that I'll get to in a sec)'

Going about being a person. And then. Eyes up and down. Smile love. Beeping cars. Etc etc. Going about my business and reminded I'm a girl. By men who think they can intrude on me in that way that they never would with a man. (Of course there was the following, threats, flashing etc as well). But at a fundamental level it was about being a person and being reminded I was female. Jarring and unpleasant.

The reason I write that bit is because of this.

'And the cultural - men give way to me in lifts'

You see I hate that. There I am being a person and it's pointed out that I'm not. Loads of women hate this. We're always told it's trivial.

I have worked in places where this is the norm and the interesting thing is that if you say no, you go first. Many don't want to. Really don't want to. Why on earth not? If it's a kind gesture then why not accept it? The refusal means there is something else going on. A woman being 'chivalrous' towards a man goes down really badly quite I lot. So.. what is going on then. And of course none of these men operate 'ladies first' when they're going home on the tube at rush hour. They're often the most sharp elbowed of the lot (my guess!).

So in the face of a poster here saying yeah ladies first is awesome.

Where does that leave people (women and girls) like me?

@AlwaysTawnyOwl

nauticant

Do you think there are about 500,000 trans people in the UK? It used to be the case that, based on the prevalence of gender dysphoria, the number was assumed to be around 5000

We will see what the ONS comes up with but 500,000 is about 1 in 100 of the adult population. My husband was responsible for equality and diversity at a large university with 4000 staff. If this % was correct there should be 40 trans staff. He made extensive enquiries asking trans staff to contact him in confidence to enable him to get a sense of how many trans staff they had. A total of 3 people contacted him. So my guess is that the numbers are far lower.

I agree with that ‘feel’ for numbers. One in 2,000 as ‘out’ trans people. There are ca. 7,500 barristers at the independent bar and I believe there ti be two trans and one non-binary barristers in practice at the moment. It is likely that the number who are not ‘out’ is a bit higher.

I agree that it will be interesting to see the census results.

@gardenbird48

Well, there are the funny parts, like men explaining technical things to me very slowly (I hold a pilot’s license).

Genuine question, I am honestly not trying to be rude but I am struggling a bit with this one - why do you think they would do that to you? You are quite open about being a transwoman so I would find that somewhat surprising.

I may be open about it when appropriate but I don’t wear a big sign on my head that says trans.

The last time this happened was at a garage when I queried the need for some work on a vehicle of mine and had the ‘noddy’ explanation from the mechanic which started with the words ‘Look, lady...’. The garage owner, who knows me well, then appeared and put the mechanic right, who then apologised.

@NiceGerbil

So in the face of a poster here saying yeah ladies first is awesome.

Where does that leave people (women and girls) like me?

That is why Mumsnet can be a bit difficult to engage with. Nowhere did I say the western cultural ‘norm’ of ‘ladies first’ was ‘awesome’. That is your take on my comment. I noted that it happens in answer to the question that I was asked.

Where does that leave people (women and girls) like me?

NiceGerbil

I think it means you don't feel like a woman or girl, so you're non-binary or a transman.

Not liking being reminded you're female means you're not a woman. Actual women would like that, obviously.

FFS, this makes me so angry. And I'm not even fucking female.

It's such an obvious and horrible trap for young girls. And people deny it could be a social contagion. It's hard to imagine a more appealing one.

@Datun

Well, there are the funny parts, like men explaining technical things to me very slowly

This is why you will never get it. You are implying that these men think you are female, but clearly, you will never understand that treating females as lesser than isn't 'funny'.

It's the cornerstone of a patriarchy which leads to the oppression of women everywhere.

There are many ways to win the battle. Being shouty and flighty is one, using humour and quiet explanation is another.

To complete the garage story, the owner explained to the mechanic that I fly vintage aircraft, including WW2 warbirds, and probably did have a fair idea how an internal combustion engine worked. The mechanic now treats me rather differently and, I hope, has learned a valuable lesson about assumptions.

I am perfectly prepared to challenge inappropriate behaviour and have done so regularly but there is more than one way ‘to skin a cat’.

I agree with that ‘feel’ for numbers. One in 2,000 as ‘out’ trans people.

That feels right to me, too, just from how many I've encountered in my personal life. (Don't know about "out", but people who I've known who I observe are not of the sex they "present" as).

But then how can we believe that the surge of young female "trans" adolescents is the same demographic?

If the number of "gay" people leapt from 3%(?) to 30%, that would be really weird, but at least you could stop and check - "hang on, are you actually having sex with people of the same sex? Have people changed or has the meaning of the word changed in some way?"

(The stats actually have leaped recently for "bisexual" and "queer" identification - the follow-up question about actual behaviour hasn't followed, but I bet behaviour stats wouldn't have changed much).

But with a leap in "trans", it's a bit harder to say, "hang on, is this really gender dysphoria?", but it seems the obvious question. Is this the same thing you experienced, along with the other 1-in-2000 or is it something else? Can tens of percent of one school group suddenly be that?

I may be open about it when appropriate but I don’t wear a big sign on my head that says trans.

The last time this happened was at a garage when I queried the need for some work on a vehicle of mine and had the ‘noddy’ explanation from the mechanic which started with the words ‘Look, lady...’. The garage owner, who knows me well, then appeared and put the mechanic right, who then apologised.

Put him right about his despicable sexism, or merely told him off because it was you?

RobinMoiraWhite
The last time this happened was at a garage when I queried the need for some work on a vehicle of mine and had the ‘noddy’ explanation from the mechanic which started with the words ‘Look, lady...’. The garage owner, who knows me well, then appeared and put the mechanic right, who then apologised.

Because if you had been female that would have been a totally appropriate way to speak to you?

Robin rather than regaling derailing us with your personal experiences, this thread is about consent for puberty blockers. I asked you a question about the criteria set out by the judges, as to me they are a middle ground, which is what you advise is what you’d like to see. Do you agree with those criteria and agree that children and their parents need to truly understand what puberty blockers entail, or don’t you?

@NotBadConsidering

Robin rather than regaling derailing us with your personal experiences, this thread is about consent for puberty blockers. I asked you a question about the criteria set out by the judges, as to me they are a middle ground, which is what you advise is what you’d like to see. Do you agree with those criteria and agree that children and their parents need to truly understand what puberty blockers entail, or don’t you?

It’s a little unfair to criticise me for answering questions posed of me by other contributors.

And this thread is about the consequences of the AB &CD case, not just consent for puberty blockers.

To be valid, consent has to be informed, of course.

Whether the judges got the extent of the necessary information right in Bell is another matter, and will be re-examined on appeal. Different views are possible.

And this thread is about the consequences of the AB &CD case, not just consent for puberty blockers

The case linked in the OP is the Good Law Project’s announcement about parents consenting for puberty blockers.

Whether the judges got the extent of the necessary information right in Bell is another matter, and will be re-examined on appeal. Different views are possible.

And what’s your view? On any of the 8 criteria?

Whether the judges got the extent of the necessary information right in Bell is another matter, and will be re-examined on appeal. Different views are possible.
But what's your view?
You're on the thread so it's kind of hard to believe you don't have an opinion.
Which information - in your view - is necessary and which isn't?

X post sorry

rather than regaling derailing us with your personal experiences, this thread is about consent for puberty blockers.

Sorry that was partly me asking questions that perpetuated the derail.

I think Nicegerbils post makes a lots of sense - we have heard a number of times about children process feelings and the reaction of people around them to a specific issue or condition.

I find it quite concerning that there are adults that, knowing that we currently have no way of telling who the 80% of gender questioning children who will ultimately desist and medication would be a wholly inappropriate treatment, still seem to advocate for treating them all. Are we seriously saying that it is ok to sacrifice the health of the 80% for some unproven gain in the 20%?

We still haven’t heard any suggestion from the experts here on diagnostic criteria that the clinicians could use to prevent misdiagnosis. I have a lifelong medical condition and I am pretty clued up in every aspect from how it affects my body, the different elements of diagnosis and how to manage it effectively. It presents in different people with very different symptoms but I have enough understanding that I could explain it all to someone.

We gave some experts on here who have lived experience of being trans. Could they provide us with a better insight as to how the doctors can prevent misdiagnosis because as far as I’m concerned, until they sort that out it would be unbelievably risky to treat any under 16 year old (and tbh older than that)

You would deny the treatment pathway that has made my life worth living and to all the others?

Please spend more time making life better for all than bearing down on trans people.

This is disingenuous. The thread and case discussed concerns an 'experimental' medical intervention being performed on children by NHS which disrupts their pubertal development. It has nothing to do with the elective medical/cosmetic surgical interventions that adults in their 40's consent to.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/health-board-misled-young-patients-over-puberty-drug-gp7gtpj7z

I mean how anyone can claim that consent is happening when up until now the information that would enable parents to understand the risks of treatment has not even been given to parent or child. Why are advocates of child transition not remotely critical of this?

I have known personally over the past decade only two have detransitioned. One due to family pressure (go down this route and you wont see your children again) and the other becuse an unrelated heath condition meant they were unable to proceed with gender-confirming surgery

This isn’t really detransition though is it? Presumably their “gender identities” haven’t changed so they would still meet the criteria to be trans wouldn’t they?

Thanks for that signal.

I can't read it all but

Newly-released documents show that as early as January 2017, officials at NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde recognised that the long-term impacts of hormones known as puberty blockers were not known but could affect bone density and stunt growth. Despite this, a leaflet published by the health board until last year said that taking blockers was considered “fully reversible”.

Is enough.

I suppose what I want to get across from this is that IME (and it is just my experience). If you are different, and in pain. The attention, care. Tests, checks. Concern. Serious conversations. I liked them. They made me feel accepted important cared for. Instead of different and in pain.

Dominico Di Ceglie paper, 'Castaway's Corner' published Clin Child Psychol Psychiatry 2002 7: 487 describes the setting up of Tavistock GIDS service for children and Mermaids parent support group and is worth reading.

Di Ceglie wrote the service specifications of GIDS which they still follow. He also remains a member of the board there.

Within the principles that he asserted is the belief that children have a 'gender identity'.

The 'first case' which piqued his interest was a distressed teenage girl. Whether she had undiagnosed ASD / ADHD, had been subjected to abuse or was a lesbian no-one will know. Note how he took her case despite having no relevant experience or knowledge because he thought it would be good training opportunity and it piqued his curiosity.
journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1359104502007003013?journalCode=ccpa

One of Di Ceglie's next patients (a young boy) would likely have being more appropriately supported by an experienced Child Protection Social Worker or play therapist

(extract)
"I used to see this 7-year-old boy after school as my last case. He made few demands of me as his therapist. This seemed to be the perfect patient to have at the end of a hard day. As soon as he walked in the room he would start to play with the dolls’ house, placing all the dolls, which I had provided, in the little rooms apparently totally ignoring me and tidying up everything near the end of the session. The problem started when I asked him what he was playing. He came up with very elaborate fantasies on how all the children in the house were going to be killed by various means, including the use of poisonous gas released by a cylinder. I was shocked to find out that so much was going on in his mind in spite of the mild appearances of his behaviour. Within a Kleinian perspective (Klein, 1975), if the dolls’ house represented the body of the mother or his relationship with the mother there was very little of a benevolent nature going on there. So much for the ‘blissful’ relationship!" (continues)

"During the life of the service, staff and users have contributed creatively to its development. For instance, a mother of a child with gender identity disorders involved in a dispute over contact with her ex-partner, asked me during a court break if she could meet other parents facing similar issues. This was the start of a new development – the running of a group for parents of children with gender problems. This group became an important feature of our service and then led to the formation of a self-help organization called ‘Mermaids’. Mermaids had been the focus of discussion in one of the parents’ groups in an attempt to understand the fascination that some children have for these mythical creatures. ‘Mermaids’ is a complementary organization to our service, which offers the kind of help and support that we, as professionals, cannot. Their social activities and networks provide, in my view, a space within society in which children and teenagers with unusual gender development can feel accepted. Their social isolation is reduced and they can start to feel part of a community"

GIDS statement "Our Gender Identity Development Service
4 November 2018
(extract)
The GIDS was founded in 1989 and is one of the longest standing services for gender diverse children and young people in the world. Domenico Di Ceglie, who founded the service, wrote a set of therapeutic aims which we still abide by today. This includes the unconditional acceptance and respect for young people’s gender identity. We do not therefore take a view regarding the outcome of an individual’s gender identity development: rather, our focus is to provide a space for exploration of gender, to ameliorate any negative impacts on general development and to work with young people to think through all the options open to them. These principles remain central to the delivery of the service." (continues)
tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/about-us/news/stories/our-gender-identity-development-service/

@AnyOldPrion

I may be open about it when appropriate but I don’t wear a big sign on my head that says trans.

The last time this happened was at a garage when I queried the need for some work on a vehicle of mine and had the ‘noddy’ explanation from the mechanic which started with the words ‘Look, lady...’. The garage owner, who knows me well, then appeared and put the mechanic right, who then apologised.

Put him right about his despicable sexism, or merely told him off because it was you?

Same thing really. He asked me to describe the 27 Litre Merlin engine I use occasionally and the 'vehicle' it lives in. Mr mechanic had his chin on the floor. It was very funny.

Bernadette Wren: on change
Interview by Glenn Gossling 2020, for In Mind magazine
(extract)
Bernadette Wren is a Consultant Clinical Psychologist and Systemic Family Therapist who worked at the Tavi for twenty five years as a clinician, trainer, supervisor and head of the Psychology discipline. In her time at the Tavi she was deeply involved with the GIDS team, working there initially in 1997-2000 and then from 2011 until her retirement in 2020. In that time she has seen significant change, but much continuity too, in the challenges to that service. “At the time I went back, even though the team was tiny, there were many differences between the clinicians in how they conceptualised the clinical and theoretical issues. Real tensions existed.” (continues)

"She joined GIDS in 1997 after qualifying at the Tavi as a family therapist on M6. She says, “After I qualified, there was a very part-time job going in the Gender Identity Service, then housed in a tiny office at the Portman. I think I was the fourth staff member. At the time it really wasn’t comfortable being at the Portman; we felt very marginalised.” In fact one of the early, very public, critiques of gender clinics came from within the Portman in 2002, when a group of adult clinicians wrote to the Telegraph strongly asserting the ‘delusional’ nature of transgender identities.

Bernadette takes a thoughtful view of this, saying, “The Portman then, as now, would have been the clinic taking on as adult patients people who were among the small number voicing regret for the surgeries they had undergone. But clinicians tended to build their whole understanding of trans identities on working with that group of patients. In GIDS, meeting very young people, we saw things differently.”

In 1995 Domenico de Ceglie set out the therapeutic aims and values for GIDS by which the service still abides. These include the ‘unconditional acceptance and respect’ for young people’s expression of their gender identity. “Those therapeutic aims still represent the core values of the service – they’re Domenico’s lasting legacy,” says Bernadette. “He grasped that if you want to have a genuine engagement with young people you have to take very seriously what they feel and what they say.” And she adds: “if you want to know how GIDS still operates, read Domenico’s aims.” (continues)
100years.tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/bernadette-wren-on-change/?v=79cba1185463