Can feminism be right wing?

[DisgustedofManchester]

This popped up on twitter today ( its an image I cannot share that basically says that 90% of the news that fairplayforwomen interacts with leans right ) and its an interesting question especially with regard to gender critical feminism because the ideology with regards to trans rights and trans people does match the views of traditionally conservative groups like men's rights activists, the christian right, conservative politics and the generally socially conservative.

The conundrum is that I see many GC accounts also being for example anti-brexit which is not a right wing position or is it a case of my enemy's enemy is my friend? Even if they are anti-feminists as well. Or is right wing feminism where women now feel more represented?

[quote PotholeHellhole]Found someone acting out a stillbirth in a breastfeeding support group, to the distress of women who had had miscarriages. That count?

Trigger Warning: nauseating content

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/princess-mom[/quote]
the way this is worded is slightly misleading no? that person is a weirdo, no doubt about it, facebook is full of them, but it sounds like they were welcomed in the actual FB group? and it's glinner who says he 'acted out a stillbirth' and called it a fetish, not the words in the screenshots (they do show wild and weird behaviour). and of course someone in his comments found it offensive and upsetting - he collates stories for maximum offence and outrage, to the point where other GC people are distancing themselves from him - Jesse singal published a recent piece in which he directly calls him a transphobe who makes "cruel and unnecessary attacks on individuals" and calls his attacks on Grace Lavery, someone he himself is definitely not a big fan of, "disgraceful". so no, glinner links are not a credible source, they're up there with the national enquirer in terms of their grasp on reality, as far as I'm concerned.

@Floisme

Left wing / right wing is a British colonial concept based on patriarchal hierarchies.

My politics are non-binary.

I thought that it came about in the Assemblée nationale following the French Revolution

The subject is children's longterm health and happiness, and you're rolling your eyes and chuckling? I find your comment in really poor taste.

I'm rolling my eyes because you're a glorified anti-vaxxer.

Jesse singal published a recent piece in which he directly calls him a transphobe who makes "cruel and unnecessary attacks on individuals" and calls his attacks on Grace Lavery, someone he himself is definitely not a big fan of, "disgraceful". so no, glinner links are not a credible source, they're up there with the national enquirer in terms of their grasp on reality, as far as I'm concerned.

A man! A man has given his opinion. It must be true.

LisaStansfield

the way this is worded is slightly misleading no? that person is a weirdo, no doubt about it, facebook is full of them, but it sounds like they were welcomed in the actual FB group? and it's glinner who says he 'acted out a stillbirth'

No he didn't. I did. You just quoted me saying it. Because that is what is going on. Someone acting out a stillbirth.

and called it a fetish, not the words in the screenshots (they do show wild and weird behaviour). and of course someone in his comments found it offensive and upsetting

Wow, who would have thought it. Women in a breastfeeding support group finding it upsetting that a member was acting out a stillbirth. Perhaps the person in question shouldn't have joined the group then. As you yourself acknowledge it's an of course situation. This member joining and choosing to act as they did of course impacted women in the group and drove them out, didn't it.

he collates stories for maximum offence and outrage, to the point where other GC people are distancing themselves from him -Jesse singal published a recent piece in which he directly calls him a transphobe who makes "cruel and unnecessary attacks on individuals" and calls his attacks on Grace Lavery, someone he himself is definitely not a big fan of, "disgraceful". so no, glinner links are not a credible source, they're up there with the national enquirer in terms of their grasp on reality, as far as I'm concerned.

Did Glinner make it up? No? Then your emotions about Glinner are irrelevant.

The source is screenshots from twitter and the group. I happen to actually remember the women who highlighted the situation posting on twitter about having been kicked out of the facebook group for saying they found the member's actions upsetting and offensive. They're the ones that supplied Glinner with the screenshots.

He can't collate what doesn't happen, and let us remember, you asked for evidence that anything like this happens.

The sad reality is that any time someone sets up to collate these incidents, they then get classed as "not a credible source" afterwards.

But seeing as you don't like the way Graham Linehan collated it, how about more primary sources?

This is before Linehan picked it up.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4037973-Simulated-pregnancy-and-induced-lactation

Oh FFS, stop banging on about trans rights. The thread is about right wing feminism.

It's possible to believe in feminism and also believe in a small state, lower taxes and free market economy. Personally I lean very much to the left, but that doesn't mean I assume all feminists share my economic point of view.

@TheRabbitOfCaerbannog

Jesse singal published a recent piece in which he directly calls him a transphobe who makes "cruel and unnecessary attacks on individuals" and calls his attacks on Grace Lavery, someone he himself is definitely not a big fan of, "disgraceful". so no, glinner links are not a credible source, they're up there with the national enquirer in terms of their grasp on reality, as far as I'm concerned.

A man! A man has given his opinion. It must be true.

I was refuting a source written by a man with another source written by a man. your "good faith" is showing here.

*f course someone in his comments found it offensive and upsetting

Wow, who would have thought it. Women in a breastfeeding support group finding it upsetting that a member was acting out a stillbirth*

try again. the woman who found it offensive and upsetting was a glinner commentator. in the actual piece you linked to, glinner bemoans the fb group members' lack of outrage. which looks a lot like a bloke telling women in a women's space how they should think and behave, but it can't really be that can it, him being such a feminist.

The sad reality is that any time someone sets up to collate these incidents, they then get classed as "not a credible source" afterwards.

you'd have a point if it wasn't people from his own side who are now calling him out.

@PotholeHellhole

LisaStansfield

the way this is worded is slightly misleading no? that person is a weirdo, no doubt about it, facebook is full of them, but it sounds like they were welcomed in the actual FB group? and it's glinner who says he 'acted out a stillbirth'

No he didn't. I did. You just quoted me saying it. Because that is what is going on. Someone acting out a stillbirth.

and called it a fetish, not the words in the screenshots (they do show wild and weird behaviour). and of course someone in his comments found it offensive and upsetting

Wow, who would have thought it. Women in a breastfeeding support group finding it upsetting that a member was acting out a stillbirth. Perhaps the person in question shouldn't have joined the group then. As you yourself acknowledge it's an of course situation. This member joining and choosing to act as they did of course impacted women in the group and drove them out, didn't it.

he collates stories for maximum offence and outrage, to the point where other GC people are distancing themselves from him -Jesse singal published a recent piece in which he directly calls him a transphobe who makes "cruel and unnecessary attacks on individuals" and calls his attacks on Grace Lavery, someone he himself is definitely not a big fan of, "disgraceful". so no, glinner links are not a credible source, they're up there with the national enquirer in terms of their grasp on reality, as far as I'm concerned.

Did Glinner make it up? No? Then your emotions about Glinner are irrelevant.

The source is screenshots from twitter and the group. I happen to actually remember the women who highlighted the situation posting on twitter about having been kicked out of the facebook group for saying they found the member's actions upsetting and offensive. They're the ones that supplied Glinner with the screenshots.

He can't collate what doesn't happen, and let us remember, you asked for evidence that anything like this happens.

The sad reality is that any time someone sets up to collate these incidents, they then get classed as "not a credible source" afterwards.

You only have to look at twitter to find there are photographers in the USA who are creating 'pregnancy' shoot albums for transwomen. One South American photographer did a photo layout of a transwoman holding a real infant to their breast. The infant was used as a prop.

This is happening, it is not a hidden activity by any means.

try again. the woman who found it offensive and upsetting was a glinner commentator. in the actual piece you linked to, glinner bemoans the fb group members' lack of outrage. which looks a lot like a bloke telling women in a women's space how they should think and behave, but it can't really be that can it, him being such a feminist.

Where do you think the screenshots came from then?

you'd have a point if it wasn't people fromhis own sidewho are now calling him out.

The new fashion for calling Jesse Singal "transphobic" does not actually make him gender-critical or on Glinner's "side".

Oh FFS, stop banging on about trans rights. The thread is about right wing feminism.

It's not possible to discuss feminist topics on FWR without TRAs trying to make the threads about trans. Very obsessive behaviour, I must say.

@LisaStansfield

But women attempting to speak out are being silenced

are they though? where? on the five million 'trans people are awful aren't they?' threads on here? on twitter where you can't chuck a brick without hitting someone with "I heart jk Rowling" or a "super straight" emoji in their handle (waits for cries of "omg TRAs want to CHUCK BRICKS at women")? in parliamentary select committees, where definite poster boy for the cover of Sanity Fair glinner moaned about being banned from twitter for an hour, till he had to be reminded he wasn't at speaker's corner? disagreement isn't silencing. online abuse is unnecessary and unpleasant, but it isn't silencing (and is also not one way traffic).

Hyperbole much?

Actually, the reports have been from refuge users who have been told that their complaints are transphobic.

It is refuge users who understand that by making any comment may lead to withdrawal of service. Tell us how a victim of domestic abuse would escalate this in such a way without 'outing themselves', without adding to their trauma. What avenues are available to them considering many of these women are still in precarious positions, maybe needing the services again in the future.

If you were one of these women, who might still have children that need protection, do you think that you would be talking to parliamentary committees? Particularly after your complaint has been ignored or worse, you have been told you are the problem.

The stories are out there. This is actually a relatively new issue, so I would expect it will take time for women who have been in this situation to feel comfortable to talk about it. Women who object to sharing spaces with males while they are recovering their trauma ARE being silenced. But also consider how many women are also being told that they are 'weaponising' their trauma by talking about it?

You can mock. You can deny. We will continue to listen to those who are telling us otherwise. In fact, there are women who post regularly on this board who tell us regularly that they are retraumatised by being in a space that should be considered safe with a male.

Or will you give a reason why their testimony should be ignored because they 'post on mumsnet'?

Is there a place that you would recommend to us that you would consider unbiased and actually start listening to women if they posted their stories there, somewhere that will completely protect their anonymity? Or will only wide spread of media coverage be convincing?

a minority of weirdos doesn't mean it's ok to tar all members of their group with the same brush. guilt by association brings us back to the topic of the thread, which is feminists getting into bed with right wing racist misogynists. sharing common political aims with otherwise awful people either makes you an awful person too, or it doesn't. pick one.

You only have to look at twitter to find there are photographers in the USA who are creating 'pregnancy' shoot albums for transwomen. One South American photographer did a photo layout of a transwoman holding a real infant to their breast. The infant was used as a prop.

BTW, I cannot post links to these because last time I did, they were deleted. But they are out there and not hard to find. In fact, one pregnancy shoot was for the transwoman wife of one of the advisors to one of the presidential candidates.

which is feminists getting into bed with right wing racist misogynists. sharing common political aims with otherwise awful people either makes you an awful person too, or it doesn't. pick one.

And what about the trans rights activists?

Some of the prominent ones have said some incredibly sexist, misogynistic statements. And we simply cannot name them because we will be deleted. Believe me, we have tried. But we can allude to them if it helps? We can provide some very prominent activists quotes though, to start with.

twitter.com/gnarlycharz/status/1368703619684589569?s=21

Are you really comfortable with these quotes? They are very easily checked.

No one denies that there ends up being a cross over. But it really is on both sides.

To use your argument, 'a minority of weirdos doesn't mean it's ok to tar all members of their group with the same brush'.

Our points remain that there ARE conflicts where the rights of one group impact on the rights and protections for woman and girls. Rights and protections set up to progress women and girls to counter the sexist discrimination and harm they have endured for having a female sexed body. This includes sports, health, employment opportunities, education opportunities, safeguarding and single sex spaces.

We have yet to see ANY evidence that these conflicts do not exist. In fact, we already have evidence that these conflicts DO exist. Yet, it is deemed transphobic to even suggest such conflicts exist. There are manifestos that list this as transphobic.

Do you believe that there are conflicts?

Do you believe that it is transphobic to suggest there are conflicts?

@Hibari

The subject is children's longterm health and happiness, and you're rolling your eyes and chuckling? I find your comment in really poor taste.

I'm rolling my eyes because you're a glorified anti-vaxxer.

I'm sorry, what? You aren't even making any sense.

@JosephineBaker

Oh FFS, stop banging on about trans rights. The thread is about right wing feminism.

It's possible to believe in feminism and also believe in a small state, lower taxes and free market economy. Personally I lean very much to the left, but that doesn't mean I assume all feminists share my economic point of view.

Yes, absolutely.

It's a slightly odd argument, OP. I'm left-inclined myself, and probably very far from 'socially conservative', but it's only the most narrow minded people who would use 'right wing' as some kind of aspersion. The majority of people in the UK are 'right wing', that's why we have a 'right wing' government.

@LisaStansfield

a minority of weirdos doesn't mean it's ok to tar all members of their group with the same brush. guilt by association brings us back to the topic of the thread, which is feminists getting into bed with right wing racist misogynists. sharing common political aims with otherwise awful people either makes you an awful person too, or it doesn't. pick one.

You... you literally are contradicting yourself in one post. The beginning and end of your post are literal contradictions?!

There seems to be an increasing use of both right wing and leftist as aspersions, often with no real reference to what the speaker think the content of that is. Unfortunately it's not at all difficult to find examples.

yes fightingthefoo. it's almost as if you're about to grasp my point. if it's ok to say trans people and trans allies are a cover for perverts, is it ok to say that GC feminists are helping to enforce white patriarchy by teaming up with fundamentalist christian orgs like the Heritage Foundation?

LisaStansfield. 'a cover for perverts' - who has said this? Where? Which perverts are you meaning?

oh come on. princess mom and the pregnancy photo shoot fetishists. literally a few posts up. is it ok to use these as being representative samples of trans people trying to go about their business? this happens all the time on here. a deleted post on another thread tried to conflate parents of trans kids with Aimee challenor's parents. you know exactly what you're doing. good faith discussions my arse.