Can feminism be right wing?

[DisgustedofManchester]

This popped up on twitter today ( its an image I cannot share that basically says that 90% of the news that fairplayforwomen interacts with leans right ) and its an interesting question especially with regard to gender critical feminism because the ideology with regards to trans rights and trans people does match the views of traditionally conservative groups like men's rights activists, the christian right, conservative politics and the generally socially conservative.

The conundrum is that I see many GC accounts also being for example anti-brexit which is not a right wing position or is it a case of my enemy's enemy is my friend? Even if they are anti-feminists as well. Or is right wing feminism where women now feel more represented?

I think it says more about the person using the word te*f than the people it is used to silence.

It is always a weak position so it is very easy to ignore anything else that person comes up with.

I find this comes in handy.

@WendyTestaburger

its an interesting question especially with regard to gender critical feminism because the ideology with regards to trans rights and trans people does match the views of traditionally conservative groups

OP I'm not sure I understand what you think or mean here?

My first take was that you were asserting that ideology around trans rights is Conservative? If so I agree to an extent:

The desire to mask homosexuality by encouraging trans identification seems socially conservative, especially when you consider the forced sex reassignment surgery performed on gay men in Iran.

The fragmentation of people into individuals (over 100 genders, multiple very specific sexualities) is an echo of Thatcher's "There is no such thing as society, only the individual" and is in direct opposition to the class analysis upon which socialism was built.

This fragmentation is also famously employed to encourage us to spend more money (hence the invention of pink for girls, blue for boys). This pro capitalist stance is politically Conservative. Also supported by the way in which trans people are forced to become life long medical consumers - the hormones, the breasts removed or fake breasts added. All makes quite a lot of money for some people!

Reading the rest of your post I'm less clear of your meaning. Perhaps you are not from the UK? Brexit was not split along left /right lines. It was far more about middle class metropolitan elite /the somewhat ignored rest of the population (or racists /anti racists, depending on who you listen to!)

You can't really call being gender critical an ideology. It is just a belief in material reality and science. Whilst I'm a far left aligned socialist and aspiring radical feminist, I still expect many right wingers to understand science and reality, at least in the UK.

It will be interesting to see how the op responds to Wendy’s careful and specific rebuttal of op’s points. If op doesn’t engage, it will be equally interesting.

Yes, helleofabore. It's used like a playground insult. When I see it written I can't help but think of a three year old shouting poopy head. It would be amusing if it werent for the threats that so often accompany it.

Right/left refers to nothing more than economics. Should the state pay, or the individual.

So yes, a feminist can be right wing, or a sexist can be left wing. And vice versa

Well Arabella the addition of the smiley reinforces that.

@Skyliner001 What's your lived experience of all these trans "women"? Any generalisations you can draw out of here maybe? Since you seem quite good at making generalisations.

https://transcrimeuk.com

I've always found men on the left to be misogynists I'm afraid.

I remember the outpouring over Jo Cox's husband (obviously huge sympathy) however, I did see on MN at that time people not seeing him for who/what he is and bestowing him with virtues that were clearly absent, in my view.

IMO and going by the people I've met, I've noticed it's men that are either socially inept and find it's a short hand way to say "here's my credentials, I'm a kind guy" or they're the vain sort that like to play a hero/rescuer to women whilst also seeing them as either madonna/whore type thing. Neither is about seeing women as real people with their own separate identity/needs etc.

Alternatively, and most common is that they're out and out misogynists and it's a way of getting to tell others exactly what/where/who to do/stand/say/think.

I know lots will say men on the left are not like that and don't fit the above criteria - however, Emperor's new clothes and all that - if everyone is told that to be "nice" means vote Labour then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy where some of the decent males get swept along too.

That's where we then get some of the "nicer" men thinking they also have to believe transwomen are women.

A man telling women they know better than us what being born female is all about - it's not left or right issue at all. It is the desire to use one's own critical thinking and not be told to believe the party line, that's in short supply on the left sadly.

The country always needs a strong left, but this left is going so far round the circle I think it winds up back at far right - I don't see much difference - telling people what to think and holding witch trials if they don't speak group thinking - seems really quite far right to me - Hitler would be proud of them.

It is infantile and there has always been a group think mentality on left which is dangerous and is coming home to roost over the identity politics issue. Lots on the left I've liked but always voted conservative and want middle ground of that.

James O'Brien is a case in point. Loves the sound of his own voice telling people that he's a hero to women and really cares about them and everything else. Shorthand way of saying "I'm a great guy". However, listen to what he says and how he talks over women saying trans rights are different to women's rights and you'll see my description above is spot on.

Great post Marmalade. Although I think you'll find that James O'Brien is a "centrist dad" to the proper leftists, you know the People's Front of Judea, not the Judean People's Front.

@ArabellaScott

Yes, helleofabore. It's used like a playground insult. When I see it written I can't help but think of a three year old shouting poopy head. It would be amusing if it werent for the threats that so often accompany it.

@MrsWooster

I did read the comment but it was very ideological and deflecting. The idea that people encourage transitioning to avoid being gay is frankly ridiculous and if anyone mentions Iran again I will frankly just weep. Its akin to pro-lifers referencing China's one child policy. I don't bother engaging with hyperbole and frankly extreme positions like that. Its a waste of time for everyone involved and has little to do with my actual post. I suggest they start another thread for those interested.

Sorry, trying to work my way around the board controls so misquoted the wring thread and cannot see how to edit

I don't bother engaging with hyperbole and frankly extreme positions

Like claiming all GC feminists are right wing and aligned with the evangelical Christians in the US?

Of course a feminist can be right wing.

You can't edit posts on MN once posted.

I did read the comment but it was very ideological and deflecting. The idea that people encourage transitioning to avoid being gay is frankly ridiculous and if anyone mentions Iran again I will frankly just weep.

Weep away.

"I think there are a lot of gay men out there who are gay men as a consolation prize because they couldn’t be women."

Juno Dawson, trans author.

the only thing required to be gender critical is :

confidence in own opinion, don't need to check through a little book to see if I'm "allowed" to think something

critical thinking

potentially education, although I don't think people in extreme poverty with no education would have any difficult in the concept of female/male

able to take insults - and realise it says more about the person hurling the abuse than it does about me - ie. confidence, again

Being a female doesn't come with a set of opinions - we are all the way across the spectrum on every single subject in the whole wide world. We don't have group think. We do know that our biology inherently comes with its own issues and we recognise when someone is talking bullshit on the subject.

So I can see why people lacking that confidence will run for the shield of a group think, it's much easier than thinking for yourself and coming in up with your own opinion. Also, the shocking realisation for some that an opinion might align with people that I don't agree with on other things.

I can like some things about a person and ignore the things I don't like - I do it with people in my family and apply the same to others and political views of any kind. There is a tendency to look for absolutes by some though.

However, I don't "hate" anyone on the other side of my thinking - however, others do like hurling abuse on lots of things - as I say, more about them than my opinion. Sound immature at best, or sadly just idiots.

@Datun

I did read the comment but it was very ideological and deflecting. The idea that people encourage transitioning to avoid being gay is frankly ridiculous and if anyone mentions Iran again I will frankly just weep.

Weep away.

"I think there are a lot of gay men out there who are gay men as a consolation prize because they couldn’t be women."

Juno Dawson, trans author.

Yes. It is not surprising quotes like this from prominent activists.

Also the Tavistock:

It feels like conversion therapy for gay children, say clinicians

Ex-NHS staff fear that homophobia is driving a surge in ‘transgender’ young people

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-feels-like-conversion-therapy-for-gay-children-say-clinicians-pvsckdvq2

everyone who is even a bit GC gets called right wing by TRAs so I wouldnt pay it much heed.

And everyone who supports trans people’s rights to have access to appropriate healthcare, and to participate fully in public life without discrimination gets told they are eRaSiNg wOmEn, are pro putting rapists in female prisons, pro paedo grooming gangs, and pro drugging confused pre pubescent gay children. It’s a crazy world and we need more peace love and understanding all round hey

@LisaStansfield

And everyone who supports trans people’s rights to have access to appropriate healthcare, and to participate fully in public life without discrimination gets told they are eRaSiNg wOmEn, are pro putting rapists in female prisons, pro paedo grooming gangs, and pro drugging confused pre pubescent gay children. It’s a crazy world and we need more peace love and understanding all round hey

No feminist has ever campaigned against adult trans people, over the age of consent, to have adequate and appropriate healthcare.

They are, however, extremely worried about children, who are too young to understand the implications of their decision, being given the same infertility-causing off-label drugs used to chemically castrate adult men which are sold as "puberty blockers".

And by "participate fully in public life" what you actually mean is allowing anyone who claims to be a woman access single sex spaces, override single sex provisions for women and children who are vulnerable or have been sexually assaulted, and obliterate women's sports.

Where's your love and understanding for women fleeing domestic violence who don't want to share a bedroom or bathroom with someone with a penis?

Where's your love and understanding for the poor young women who can't otherwise afford to go to university having their sports scholarships stolen by penis-havers who wouldn't even qualify in the male races?

Why does your demand for love and compassion only ever flow in one direction?

@DisgustedofManchester

This popped up on twitter today ( its an image I cannot share that basically says that 90% of the news that fairplayforwomen interacts with leans right ) and its an interesting question especially with regard to gender critical feminism because the ideology with regards to trans rights and trans people does match the views of traditionally conservative groups like men's rights activists, the christian right, conservative politics and the generally socially conservative.

The conundrum is that I see many GC accounts also being for example anti-brexit which is not a right wing position or is it a case of my enemy's enemy is my friend? Even if they are anti-feminists as well. Or is right wing feminism where women now feel more represented?

Yes, there is an overlap between GC feminism and conservatism - both believe sex is immutable. Just as there is an overlap between trans ideology and conservatism - both believe gender is innate.

And your username, "DisgustedofManchester" - are you the same DisgustedofManchester who comments on articles on The Times online? Usually talking piffle, red herrings and strawmen?

Lurkers. Take note.

The women of MN are formidable. WC/MC/UMC/A

It upsets many that the standard format forces people to use words, sentences (perhaps paragraphs) and to present cogent arguments but

(blows raspberry)

Hey ho.

What is 'A'? Awesome?