Can feminism be right wing?

[DisgustedofManchester]

This popped up on twitter today ( its an image I cannot share that basically says that 90% of the news that fairplayforwomen interacts with leans right ) and its an interesting question especially with regard to gender critical feminism because the ideology with regards to trans rights and trans people does match the views of traditionally conservative groups like men's rights activists, the christian right, conservative politics and the generally socially conservative.

The conundrum is that I see many GC accounts also being for example anti-brexit which is not a right wing position or is it a case of my enemy's enemy is my friend? Even if they are anti-feminists as well. Or is right wing feminism where women now feel more represented?

Hibari: I'm rolling my eyes because you're a glorified anti-vaxxer.

Er, it's your side that apparently doesn't understand the most basic biology. The denial of reality is on your side.

But you think you're infallible when it comes to the ethics of giving experimental drugs to children?

is it ok to use these as being representative samples of trans people trying to go about their business? this happens all the time on here.

Right. The examples were posted because you denied it was happening.

You are continuing with this line of feminists being problematic because there are people who have the same points of view but with extreme views on other things.

The hypocrisy is being pointed out to you. There are some trans activists who are very prominent who have very harmful beliefs.

And yet, I personally believe that there are many trans people who do just want to get on with life.

Do you believe there are conflicts of the rights being sought by activists that conflict with established rights for women and girls?

Do you think it is transphobic to suggest that there are conflicts?

By the way, suggesting there is a conflict with sports is also considered transphobic. I am sure you know that.

It's quite simple LisaStansfield, do you accept that women can have sex segregated places in situations where they are vulnerable?

Talking about the accountability or motivations of individuals is irrelevant to the concept.

Do you accept that women have these boundaries that they define?

but this focusing on the most extreme examples and exaggerating them (like the continual conflation of puberty blockers with cross sex hormones and the misrepresentation that doctors are flinging them out like sweeties

What do you mean? If you're suggesting that puberty blockers are some mild medication (not like cross sex hormones) then I don't agree. They will permanently mess up someone's natural puberty and you can't correct the damage; and also harmful side effects. That is a serious intervention to be doing.

Then you have the issue, (even if somewhat unclear at this time), that apparently many of the children could have accepted their biological gender if they were left to go through puberty. That's the healthiest outcome for children presumably, and it may well be messed up when you start kids on this medication pathway.

As for how easily doctors give them... probably depends quite a bit on whether you have the money for private doctors or have to depend on public healthcare. But anyway, trans-activists probably want easier access to drugs including for children. Even if it's not an easy prescription to get, there are still issues here when many children can naturally recover from gender dysphoria, and the meds have serious effects and side effects. They aren't some temporary "pause" to let kids work things out.

is it ok to say that GC feminists are helping to enforce white patriarchy by teaming up with fundamentalist christian orgs like the Heritage Foundation?

Is it ok that trans activists who have notably stated sexist and misogynistic ideas and attitudes continue to reinforce sexism and misogyny by being lauded in their roles as activists?

Including spokespeople that advocate to legalize activities that harm women and children such as lowering the age for porn actors and legalizing extreme porn ?

I truly do not understand why people pushing the agenda that people campaigning to maintain and strengthen the rights and protections of women and girls against sexist discrimination are aligned with right wing politics simply because some issues are common, don’t look further than their nose. Look further than their nose at those who are advocating for the lowering or removal of boundaries for women and children.

It just is blatantly hypocritical.

@ThisIsSimplyBeyond

Right/left refers to nothing more than economics. Should the state pay, or the individual.

So yes, a feminist can be right wing, or a sexist can be left wing. And vice versa

This.

@JosephineBaker

Oh FFS, stop banging on about trans rights. The thread is about right wing feminism.

It's possible to believe in feminism and also believe in a small state, lower taxes and free market economy. Personally I lean very much to the left, but that doesn't mean I assume all feminists share my economic point of view.

And this.

Right / Left has common meaning beyond just economics.

But anyway, there is nothing in theory to stop a feminist being right-wing in certain ways e.g. "tough on crime", believe in strong border controls, support gun rights, be pro-free speech (the political left gave up that issue), or even be anti-abortion.

“Do you believe there are conflicts of the rights being sought by activists that conflict with established rights for women and girls?

Do you think it is transphobic to suggest that there are conflicts?

By the way, suggesting there is a conflict with sports is also considered transphobic. I am sure you know that.”

Paragraph 1: absolutely agree

Paragraph 2: absolutely agree, again, but that’s not all that is said is it? Explain to me what threads calling eddie izzard a narcissist, or speculating about elliott page’s divorce have to do with the above? You know what a dog whistle is right?

Paragraph 3: again, yes. But I don’t care, i think for myself and am not aligned with tribes, my opinions are my own.

It is disingenuous in the extreme to demonise trans people to the extent this board does, then expect to reach a place where sensitive issues like this can be thrashed out properly without ill will.

Great. Now. Why do you feel it is righteous to imply that many GC feminists are actively colluding with right wing extremists who may share a narrow band of similar campaign points? Based on what? Did I see you mention the Heritage Foundation? What the fuck has this to do with feminists in the UK? You do realize that those claims of women’s organizations being funded by far right and evangelical religious groups is unfounded, don’t you?

And while you are suggesting the alliance between feminists and ‘right wing’ you are completely ignoring those who are actively pursuing an agenda to seek rights that conflict with women’s rights and protections that have some pretty misogynistic and harmful views and some are working at lowering boundaries, and not just safety boundaries, for women and children.

Why are these people getting their behaviour which is in the public domain, hand waved away while women are being told they are supporting right wing causes for discussing their issues? Do you go and point this out on twitter to those who make outrageous statements? And does anyone take any notice of you do?

And frankly, who really cares what Elliot Page or whoever is getting divorced or not? What has it to do with feminism? Eddie Izard? If you can’t see the issue with Eddie’s current attitude of stating that they will be in boy mode for well paying dramatic roles, and speculation on their political aspirations and how that impacts women, well that is your issue. Or are you happy for Eddie to be counted as a female MP in the stats that indicate the equality of representation of females in parliament?

You know what a dog whistle is right?

The only people I ever see talking about dog whistles are dog trainers and trans rights activists. Those that deploy the term are seeking to shut women up or shame them. Is that what you are doing when you use it?

I have read a great deal from people without a range of different view points. I can assure you that those accusing women of using ‘dog whistles’ have plenty of their own signals.

It is just another bit of hypocrisy that is conveniently ignored.

people without a range of different view points

Should be

people from a range of different view points

When it comes to feminisim I don't give a shiney shit about trans rights.

Feminisim is all about the females. If you are a male woman feminisim is not for you, about you and does not fight for you. If you are a female man then you have decided feminisim is not for you however feminists will still fight for you.

I dont care what camp you sit in if you do not centre females then you are not a feminist.

Also, just clarifying.

Do you believe there are conflicts of the rights being sought by activists that conflict with established rights for women and girls?

Paragraph 1: absolutely agree

So you agree? What do you feel is the solution that is not being done now, considering up until recently the prevailing commentary was ‘no debate was allowed’?

And What are you actively doing to protect the rights of females?

And What are you actively doing to protect the rights of females?

The reason I ask this, is you seem to have strong views so I take it your have experience to share. I am interested in hearing what others are doing that they view as better ways to work to protect these rights.

There are always threads asking for advice on how people can be active. It’s be great to get some fresh ideas.

I'm 100% left wing. I believe in single sex provision and spaces. I believe that Trans people need access to appropriate support (and in some cases this may be cosmetic surgery to alter their appearance, but it won't change their sex).

I believe that Trans issues are so high up the priority list as they are a useful political football. I also believe that most of the underlying issues, particularly linked with ROGD could be resolved with a reinvestment in health, police and support services (safeguarding, pastoral care in schools etc) and an effort to build inclusive communities, rather than put up false walls.

I also think that Trans issues are a handy issue to distract from these more fundamental ideas that need addressing. Platforms like Twitter exacerbate this as it doesn't allow for sorely needed nuance.

@InspiralCoalescenceRingdown

Oh FFS, stop banging on about trans rights. The thread is about right wing feminism.

It's not possible to discuss feminist topics on FWR without TRAs trying to make the threads about trans. Very obsessive behaviour, I must say.

I was finding this thread really interesting. Until it was derailed by somebody wanting to talk about trans rights.

The thread was about feminism and politics. Can't we talk about that without somebody trying to centre trans rights?

@LastRoloIsMine

When it comes to feminisim I don't give a shiney shit about trans rights.

Feminisim is all about the females. If you are a male woman feminisim is not for you, about you and does not fight for you. If you are a female man then you have decided feminisim is not for you however feminists will still fight for you.

I dont care what camp you sit in if you do not centre females then you are not a feminist.

This. Although i would caveat with trans men (If they want to be included)

Can the left be misogynistic?

Resoundingly yes.

Is the answer to the op.

I don't want to derail further, but the issues around a certain transgender comedian/marathon runner trotting out offensive misogynistic observations about women and the reason he is now female (sometimes), using a platform to speak on behalf of women, talking about being in boy mode for acting (when we know about the huge disparities in pay for men and women), and questions about whether this person could potentially take a woman's place on an all women shortlist in future absolutely sit on a feminist board. Trying to understand this persons motivations for the way they're behaving is perfectly natural given the above.

“huge disparities in pay for men and women” and opportunities. Jane Seymour was on Grayson’s Art Club this week saying she’d been working throughout lockdown-this was worthy of humorous comment because she cheerfully pointed out that women of her age NEVER get acting work. She is fractionally less than 11 years older than other actors in the news who have more... male career options.

LisaStansfield

"By the way, suggesting there is a conflict with sports is also considered transphobic. I am sure you know that."

There is definitely a conflict with transwomen competing in women's sports. It is not transphobic in the least, it is based on biological fact.

You can't really call being gender critical an ideology. It is just a belief in material reality and science. Whilst I'm a far left aligned socialist and aspiring radical feminist, I still expect many right wingers to understand science and reality, at least in the UK.

@WendyTestaburger - that sums it up for me too.

I am not sure I'd agree that being gender critical is just material reality.

Believing sex is an empirical fact is about material reality, but GC goes beyond that to talk about what is and is not culturally constructed, and it takes a position beyond the scientific, it's ideological.