Fundraisers & questions

[WTFSeriously]

I'm posting this here as I saw something on twitter & it got me thinking. As there's still no clarity from one org who fundraisered for court action, I'm throwing out a question to others on their views on this.

FPFW fundraiser (now closed) states:

On 3rd March 2021 we successfully raised £101,000 with 3259 supporters in 14 days

With the reason for the fundraiser being:

Fair Play For Women needs to raise funds for an emergency judicial review of the definition of sex being used in the Census 2021.

FPFW chose crowdfunder, not crowdjustice to raise the money so it's their money now, not with their solicitors. We know they won, and the ONS will be responsible for their costs. Final bills haven't yet been confirmed, but leaving aside the elements of their costs not covered, there's still a significant sum that's been raised specifically to fund the "emergency judicial review" which didn't happen as the ONS conceded.

FWS lost their case. They had raised enough cash to cover their challenge, only for costs to be increased significantly due to the intervention of the Equality Network/STA. As things stand, they can't even seek advice on whether to challenge the outcome as they haven't covered their increased costs, and are likely to go bankrupt if they can't pay up. So not only will they cease to exist, but the question of challenge to the judgement will remain unanswered.

Had the 1st fundraiser been a crowd justice one, the portion of the fund not required would (I think) automatically be refunded. As FPFW chose a different method for their case, the decision on whether to refund lies with them.

From my POV, I'd like a refund & would divert that to FWS if I had the choice. But, atm, that's not a choice being given.

So, my question for others here is, what is your choice?

A) FPFW keep all the money raised - it's their CF, they can do what they want.
B) FPFW give those who contributed the choice of refund or not, and FPFW decide what to do with what's left.
C) FPFW refund the balance to everyone after costs settled/action completed
D) FPFW contribute directly to FWS fund, and keep the balance.
E) Other - specify in replies.

I've no doubt FPFW will think this is none of my business. I donated, so I think it is my business. I've also donated to FWS so that's (IMO) my business too. And more so as I'm in Scotland so I'm impacted by the FWS case.

Open to others now to have a say.

I get your point and it is something I hadn’t considered before. Constant digging is expensive and perhaps there needs to be a wider strategy among connected campaigns to maximise the effectiveness and target of funds raised.

Personally I would go for D - I’m not a Scot but FWS is so important.

I can’t believe that the Scots government have reduced Scots womanhood to a title/name on a gas bill.

I read somewhere that the problem with Orwell was that he didn’t have enough imagination. Seems depressingly appropriate.

I agree that some sort of strategy would be good. It's also worth noting that, in terms of what we're are all dealing with across the U.K., the trans rights orgs have identified the inherent weaknesses to be exploited in devolved administrations. The pushback coming from Westminster (despite having yet another WESC to go over GRA reform again) isn't happening with Scotland & Wales. NI I'm not so clear so anyone with knowledge on that would be good. But every success gained via devolved administrations is going to chip away at the bigger picture too.

What we have seen in Scotland is the vice like grip trans activists have on policy capture & it's far more difficult to mount & fund challenges. All it took to tip this into possible bankruptcy for FWS was the intervention of the Scotgov funded EN/STA.

I would also like to see some joined up working.

AEA (Ann Sinnott's org tackling Stonewall misinterpretation of the law) is something that seems to be closely aligned with FPFW's aims but Ann has struggled more to reach funding targets.

The situation with FWS is an immediate and pressing concern and I would be all for helping them out. Scottish women are having a dreadful time as it is without losing their main grassroots support org.

Despite some idiots thinking we are awash with dark money the opposite is true and with so many fronts to fights on our average of 20 quid per head donations only go so far. It's not likely to get better either because women have been hit hard economically by the pandemic.

Collaborative working would be strategically smart at this point I feel.

I agree re AEA - I think their EHRC case is going to be vital, and her wider aims are definitely worth supporting too.

I think we are passed the point where we should be reacting to what's going on & have a better, more organised, strategy overall. There should be enough collective knowledge & experience in different areas to start getting pro-active & push for action that way, but we are still on the back foot it seems.

And i need to stress this shouldn't be a closed shop either. Women, no matter what their social/economic/education/cultural/personal background need a say and should be included. I don't want to see yet more elite closed shops telling women what's what. It's time the questions were actually asked.

FPFW chose Crowdfunder and not Crowdjustice because of the tight timescales I believe. Crowdjustice (rightfully) needs to liaise with the legal firm and establish the case is genuine and where the funds should go etc. And there just wasn't enough time to wait on all that happening.

Now that FPFW have won their case and the ONS is going to pay for all their costs, then I think it's up to FPFW to decide what to do with the funds they have acquired. They mentioned that they are now setting their sights on the census in Scotland and will be writing to the Scottish government and the NRS. I imagine if there's a need to bring a similar court case against the NRS, then the funds they have raised will be used to pay for all the legal support required.

There has been a previous thread here discussing women having to start over from scratch, and several posters talked about the need for some kind of centralised funding that would help these kinds of legal actions and also help organisations providing single-sex services who are being held hostage by public funding demanding that they include males.

I think money from costs recouped from a legal victory should not go into general campaign funds. If the organisation gets its costs back, it seems fair that donations are refunded.

Alternatively if this is not possible logistically, it would be relatively simple to poll supporters on what should happen to the money.

Otherwise organisations that began as grass roots will turn into funding the next generation of professional feminists and so that wheel turns once more.

I'm happy with FPFWs decision. I do like the idea of some kind of centralised funding but not sure how it would work, who would organise and who would make decisions and on what basis.

The problem is FPFW fundraised for

"...funds for an emergency judicial review of the definition of sex being used in the Census 2021."

That is no longer happening (cos ONS conceded) and the huge funds aren't needed. If a separate action was needed for NRS, then they can deal with that when the time comes. There's a year between now & when the Scottish census will be happening.

They have fund raised for a specific purpose, no longer required, and not giving anyone a choice on the money left & what it's used for. I want a refund. I'm not going to apologise for that - I'm not flush with cash and my money is spread quite thin as it is. So when it comes to what's needed and what isn't, I'd prefer to have the choice. If FPFW intend to keep all the money raised, for a purpose no longer needed, and also intend to (it appears) take advantage of the perilous position that FWS are in? That's quite a shitty position to take, no matter what they intend.

Bottom line is - they raised a huge amount in a v short period, lots supported because of the need & urgency. The money isn't needed & I want my contribution back so I can redirect that elsewhere. That's not me being difficult, that's me expressing my opinion on money I donated.

@Imnobody4

I'm happy with FPFWs decision. I do like the idea of some kind of centralised funding but not sure how it would work, who would organise and who would make decisions and on what basis.

Do we know what the decision is?

This is what I saw on twitter

Link to tweet

"Hello. Thanks for your question. We’ll be sending out a crowdfunder update to all our supporters tomorrow."

That was supposed to be sent yesterday & it meant I checked my emails to see what they had said & there's no email & no update on the crowdfunder.

So, no, I've no idea what FPFW have actually said or decided on what's happening with the money they raised urgently that's no longer needed by them for the purpose they said it was needed for.

FPFW always said that any surplus would be used for other causes:

www.crowdfunder.co.uk/sexinthecensus2021/updates/151379#start

I can understand FPFW keeping hold of the money they have for now if they havent received and settled the final bill for their own case yet.

However, it doesn't make sense to me to say that they'll keep the funds for a legal challenge of the Scottish census a year from now... When who is included as a woman under law in Scotland is being changed NOW.
Surely a legal challenge of the census will fail if the Scottish government simply need to turn and point at the legislation showing that male people do indeed count as female in Scotland.
It's all joined up, and our response needs to be joined up too!

FPFW chose Crowdfunder and not Crowdjustice because of the tight timescales I believe. Crowdjustice (rightfully) needs to liaise with the legal firm and establish the case is genuine and where the funds should go etc. And there just wasn't enough time to wait on all that happening.

This makes sense.

I totally agree with all above who say that it's time we began to move towards more coordinated thinking/campaigning .... which in itself would be a huge step forward and says a lot about for how far we have come in such a short space of time.

That said, regarding the monies raised by Crowdfunder, and how they work:

1. When we gave the monies it was quite clear that if not needed for this case, it would fund future campaigns for FPFW: I suspect this is how Crowdfunder is set up, as they need to ensure organisations are accountable and that monies are managed legally
2. The challenge of returning donations - given that this is not how Crowdfunder is set up - would be immense, administratively expensive and take a huge amount of time.... potentially costing as much as £20 to return each £20 donation, given they would need to find out what the donor wanted, etc etc etc
3. Given it is not how it has been set up, it may be practically impossible (as well as potentially non-compliant with whatever laws guide these things) for FPFW to give some of the monies raised to another organisation
4. FPFW must be exhausted, having worked so hard and so fast to ensure success - they are a tiny team - I would NOT want to add any additional burden to them

Personally what I think we should be doing is:

1. Celebrating that FPFW now have a fighting fund of £100,000 or so - this is TINY given what we are up against and I trust them to use it well
2. All of us committing to help FWS to raise the monies - like other posters, I think this is crucial ... I am going to dig deep again, although I hadn't planned to ...

WE DO NOT WANT FOR WOMEN SCOTLAND TO GO UNDER.... and I'm going to suggest that for those posters who can't dig again (and even those who can) that you think of something else you can do to help them raise the money.... Posting well-worded questions and starting threads on Mumsnet (especially on other boards) would seem like a VERY POWERFUL and effective thing to do.... We can help them raise the money and sharing what has happened and how much is needed and why, alongside more emotional/intellectually challenging posts, could do so....

I for one don't know the details of how much they need and what the scenario is and WOULD LOVE some one to post a new thread about this on this board in an eye-catching way, recognising that only the most conscientious or involved will read existing long threads and for those of the rest of us who care but have busy lives, attracting our attention really works.

Well that's me out then. They can whistle for any further funding. Unspecified campaigns with zero oversight or input is just the same old bullshit that the likes of Engender, The Fawcett Society & others are about.

FWS are fighting against going bankrupt while FPFW make moves on the Scottish census. Aye, right.

Spot on loveyouradvice

WtfSeriously

I would urge you to think about what you are doing - I totally understand that money is short and that you would like it back BUT just think about the work involved for a tiny organisation in having to discuss with each donor what they want to do... a tiny organisation of women like us who are already on their knees with exhaustion having worked so hard for success

Your £20 achieved that success - they could not have afforded to be as brave as they were if we had not covered their potential costs

You can now choose to do something that is worth as much - and probably far more- than your £20 ... by going online to raise the profile and understanding of what is happening for FWS and helping inspire others to give their hard-earned £20s to them

So so important - and you (and others) can be so powerful in helping them succeed

I contributed - and am delighted with the outcome. I'm happy to let FPFW decide where to put the remaining funds and refund some if they want to. Have you actually contacted FPFW OP and asked for a response?
I just hope that our regular anti-women posters won't use this thread as an opportunity to post their usual word salad of accusations about women / funding / the far right etc.

I just hope that our regular anti-women posters won't use this thread as an opportunity to post their usual word salad of accusations about women / funding / the far right etc.

Given it's a thread of ordinary women discussing what will happen to their small donation that wouldn't seem very logical.

I've had the email update and I'm happy for them to redirect my donation as they see fit. As pp said, that was made clear at the time of donating.

@loveyouradvice

WtfSeriously

I would urge you to think about what you are doing - I totally understand that money is short and that you would like it back BUT just think about the work involved for a tiny organisation in having to discuss with each donor what they want to do... a tiny organisation of women like us who are already on their knees with exhaustion having worked so hard for success

Your £20 achieved that success - they could not have afforded to be as brave as they were if we had not covered their potential costs

You can now choose to do something that is worth as much - and probably far more- than your £20 ... by going online to raise the profile and understanding of what is happening for FWS and helping inspire others to give their hard-earned £20s to them

So so important - and you (and others) can be so powerful in helping them succeed

Don't patronise me.

FPFW aren't transparent or upfront about anything unless they're challenged publicly. They certainly hadn't posted any details of final bills or what they intended to do with the remaining money.

They couldn't raise £100k when they tried that before with unspecified campaigns (without any consulting or gathering opinions) nor when it was about Nic Williams getting paid.

There's a lot wrong with this and maybe FPFW want to think about how their avoidance of any accountability looks unless it's posted here or on twitter & that they don't even ask funders for their views.

So, I'm not going to 'think about what I'm doing' thanks. Ive thought about it & it still stinks so I'll express my opinion on it.

I do understand but my position is I gave money to stop the ONS messing with the definition of sex. That has been achieved, the fact costs were awarded and the ONS caved is a plus. I got what I signed up for unlike some other crowdfunders I've donated to. I really don't think FPFW can be accused of avoiding accountability.

There isn't anything on their website on funding. I've looked & there's not a thing. That's avoiding accountability IMO, especially when they are in receipt of over £100k in funds they don't currently need.

In comparison, MBM have a section on their website that covers funding & details what they've raised and where it's been spent.

MBM website

Even Women's Place U.K. have a detailed funding breakdown page on their website.

Women's Place Website

FPFW are not being transparent & are avoiding accountability. To have raised over £100k & think there's nothing else they need to say or do, is bullshit. Women are funding all of this - coming on here & telling me to STFU because reasons? Fuck that.

I very much support FPFW in all their work, am very glad for them to have a warchest in hand to keep on as all that work is very much on the same theme, and I'm very happy to have contributed to that chest.

I've had a dig today for FWS who should not be left bankrupt from trying to defend women from government paid groups they had to fund out of their own taxes. Anyone and anything currently fighting for women - and it's a vile, scary, thankless business - I am very grateful for.

Sometimes donations can be refunded (or not taken) depending on the situation. Whenever I donate I consider the money gone. Personally I am so HUGELY grateful to FPFW for doing this (and everything else) as I am not brave enough nor able/willing to spend so much time on this that I consider them worthy recipients of my money. Of course this could change in the future depending on what they do.

I do not feel I am in a position to make demands if all I have done is given money. That doesn't mean to say your suggestions aren't good - essentially that an 'umbrella' organisation should be set up. If it is set up I would donate to that too!

Sometimes (the Jennifer James corwdfunder springs to mind) I donate and I think the situation could have been handled better. However, I revert to the viewpoint that even if all that happens is that a few headlines mean this issue is given more 'sunlight' that is my money well spent. The cost to any woman in terms of emotional energy in running these campaigns is huge. Any monetary support I can give is irrelevant compared to that.

I'm not sure how it rorjsxehdn you get legal costs awarded but I doubt you get the whole £100k back?
I'm happy for them to keep my donation. It did say that any left overs would be used for further causes. I trust their judgement to use that money in a useful way.