Fundraisers & questions

[WTFSeriously]

I'm posting this here as I saw something on twitter & it got me thinking. As there's still no clarity from one org who fundraisered for court action, I'm throwing out a question to others on their views on this.

FPFW fundraiser (now closed) states:

On 3rd March 2021 we successfully raised £101,000 with 3259 supporters in 14 days

With the reason for the fundraiser being:

Fair Play For Women needs to raise funds for an emergency judicial review of the definition of sex being used in the Census 2021.

FPFW chose crowdfunder, not crowdjustice to raise the money so it's their money now, not with their solicitors. We know they won, and the ONS will be responsible for their costs. Final bills haven't yet been confirmed, but leaving aside the elements of their costs not covered, there's still a significant sum that's been raised specifically to fund the "emergency judicial review" which didn't happen as the ONS conceded.

FWS lost their case. They had raised enough cash to cover their challenge, only for costs to be increased significantly due to the intervention of the Equality Network/STA. As things stand, they can't even seek advice on whether to challenge the outcome as they haven't covered their increased costs, and are likely to go bankrupt if they can't pay up. So not only will they cease to exist, but the question of challenge to the judgement will remain unanswered.

Had the 1st fundraiser been a crowd justice one, the portion of the fund not required would (I think) automatically be refunded. As FPFW chose a different method for their case, the decision on whether to refund lies with them.

From my POV, I'd like a refund & would divert that to FWS if I had the choice. But, atm, that's not a choice being given.

So, my question for others here is, what is your choice?

A) FPFW keep all the money raised - it's their CF, they can do what they want.
B) FPFW give those who contributed the choice of refund or not, and FPFW decide what to do with what's left.
C) FPFW refund the balance to everyone after costs settled/action completed
D) FPFW contribute directly to FWS fund, and keep the balance.
E) Other - specify in replies.

I've no doubt FPFW will think this is none of my business. I donated, so I think it is my business. I've also donated to FWS so that's (IMO) my business too. And more so as I'm in Scotland so I'm impacted by the FWS case.

Open to others now to have a say.

BUT just think about the work involved for a tiny organisation in having to discuss with each donor what they want to do... a tiny organisation of women like us who are already on their knees with exhaustion having worked so hard for success

Send an email survey to the mailing list for those who ticked update options? Not hard.

It's a large sum of money raised for a very specific purpose. Donors don't have bottomless purses. At the very least, FPFW should canvas views. It is a very patrician attitude being revealed here that Nic doesn't see any reason she should do that. Especially given it's not long since she ran a "general campaign monies plus a salary for me" crowdfund which was not well supported. So she already knows there is no general mandate.

This, I imagine, is not because Nic isn't admired or supported in a personal way: I'm sure she is. It is a reflection of the fact that ordinary women have limited resources and prioritise their donations to specific, limited campaigns or specific court cases.

This money was given to fight capture by ONS wrt the census. Now it is not needed for that, NIc needs to realise it's not her sole decision where it should go next.

Crowdfunder takes 3% of the total pot.
I don't know what the rate is like at crowdjustice.
I have never given the extra donation to crowdjustice after the way they treated Allison Bailey and will never do so again.

I just did a rough calculation and I have donated around a grand over the last couple of years to a range of people who are standing up for the protection of Women and girls and against a pernicious ideology which harms teenage bodies and minds. I'm not rich - it's just this is how I choose to spend all my extra cash/birthday money etc at the moment. I hope I won't be supporting legal challenges forever.

While there is a part of me that hugely resents that I have to pay to make the government/civic bodies OBEY THE LAW OF THE LAND, personally, I do not want any of the money back. I have given what I can afford to 'lose'.

In fact I don't think any of it is wasted because it offers challenge to the capture. The fact that the Cabinet Office and ONS had to bring out the big guns shows that they recognised the strength of the opposing argument. And they still lost.

What I would be really interested in supporting would be a Women's fundraising platform (so donating via that rather than the big boys) so fees etc would support women's projects. Like for example, the creation of more female only refuges. Then I would cheerfully pay fees again.

I also like the idea of a charity I could give to which might offer matched funding to women's projects/crowdfunders because all these donations are missing out on potential gift aid.

I run a small charity and while we once did a crowdfunder I wouldn't do one again as the gift aid of all donations was lost to us as well as the fees charged. Lesson learned. Keeping the money in house is the key.

And, thanks to you, OP, I am off to donate to FWS again.

I like your suggestions ANewCreation

It's definitely preferable to what's going on at the moment.

It was very clearly stated on the Crowdfunding page that...

If any funds are left over after the legal action they will be used for other Fair Play For Women campaigns

How is this not transparent?

I am happy for them to keep my donation.

It's vague, non-specific & it wasn't the main aim of the CF. It's not that complicated. They tried fundraising for that sole purpose previously & it wasn't supported. Neither was funding a salary for Nic Williams. Will she be taking a salary from the funds raised? Future campaigns doesn't give any details on that either.

Its a stretch to claim that everyone contributing to the ONS is happy now to fund these non-specific vague campaigns & pay NW salary, when that wasn't the case only a short time ago.

A wedge being hammered into the successful crowdfunding of FPFW who manage on practically nothing and have many legal challenges in their sights. I for one will continue to support these many groups and I believe the idea that MN is the only place where notice of funding needs happens is a tad daft. Women from all over the place put in their money. Look at the big picture, do not go for dilution, it will kill all efforts to progress cases. These are fantastic women

Stay strong, stay focused and I for one will bloody well donate where I chose

FFS. Are FPFW beyond criticism? The cult like responses to this thread are quite something.

Fpfw census crowd funder has a recent update on the funding
We raised £101,000 exactly. After Crowdfunder.co.uk deducts its fees + VAT, we received £93,985.79. As we promised when we launched the crowdfunder, any surplus will be put towards other Fair Play For Women campaigns. We are confident that the final costs award will leave us with a valuable fighting fund, although probably not enough to fight a whole new legal action if that becomes necessary. We will update with the detail once the cost assessment is complete. This is likely to be a couple of months away. In the meantime, we have already instructed our legal team to undertake the necessary evaluation work to enable us to prioritise and prepare for our next legal challenges.

I can't find where they originally said what would happen to any leftover money, but my recollection from when I chipped in was that they would use it for other fpfw legal challenges.

My personal opinion is that I gave the money for this case. It was only possible & successful because I and many others did that. I knew there was a possibility that it wouldn't be used when I chipped in and basically handed my bit of money over to fpfw, so am happy for them to use it for future campaigns. They would be wise to hold on to it until everything is settled with the census case.

On the idea of a general pot, in an ideal world that would be excellent. It's been discussed before. There was also talk of a crowd funding platform. But I remember reading from Allison bailley that though this had been mooted, for various reasons couldn't get off the ground which was why she set up her own funding web site.

I wonder if a trust to manage a pot where trustees are representatives of all the campaign groups would be a good idea. But it's alot for individuals to take on in addition to their campaign work (which is in addition to their actual jobs etc).

Has the court given an order on who should pay costs in fws Jr? I know they lost so should expect to have to pay but has the court said that?

It strikes me that the speed and size of the fundraising was not unrelated to the outcome. The judge would have been very aware of the strength of feeling; there was a similar thing going on when Allison Bailey's funder was prematurely closed down.

I too am happy that they won plus costs, and can now deploy my donation as they see fit in the future. I feel like whatever I gave can now help fight another battle.

FFS. Are FPFW beyond criticism? The cult like responses to this thread are quite something.

I really hope the OPs posts are in good faith.

I like the idea of a general fighting fund, but I worry anyone paid a small retainer to be the administrator would be targeted.

Having said all that, I do hope that someone at FPFW is looking at the possibility of supporting FWS, if only to rule it out.

OP, I'm starting to find your tone a bit over the top. There are damn few people willing to stick their necks out for women at the moment. If you don't agree with them or want to fund them that's your decision. But accusing other women of 'cult like' responses to those who are putting up with the endless shit and doing the stuff most of us don't have the time, skills or strength to do ourselves?

Bit strange.

FFS. Are FPFW beyond criticism? The cult like responses to this thread are quite something

You've asked for people's opinions and now calling them cult-like when their opinion differs to your own.

@Signalbox

It was very clearly stated on the Crowdfunding page that...

If any funds are left over after the legal action they will be used for other Fair Play For Women campaigns

How is this not transparent?

I am happy for them to keep my donation.

This.

Sorry that you feel disgruntled OP, but caveat emptor applies here I think.

I suggest chalking it up to experience and moving on.

Jesus. My tone is off. I'm not posting in good faith. I should think about what I'm doing. I'm hammering a wedge into FPFW successful funding. I'm a bit thick for not getting the vague non-specific plans FPFW intended all along with £100k.

So this is what happens when you question FPFW? Right.

@WTFSeriously

FFS. Are FPFW beyond criticism? The cult like responses to this thread are quite something.

No they are not. We should be able to discuss this especially when the amounts are large and the fundraising is necessarily done through online crowd funding which is a completely unregulated sector.

It would be helpful if fpfw could point out where they said at the beginning how funding would be used in the event of some being left over. I'm sure they are right but I can't find it.

Lots of Inner Beryls talking here.

What is everyone going to do if Nic comes up with another numpty idea like the one about redesignating disabled toilets for the you-know-whos and decides to blow the £100k on it without consultation?

If it's bad for Reclaim These Streets to be opaque about what they plan to do with raised funds once the original destination is no more, it's just as bad if FPFW is.

It would be helpful if fpfw could point out where they said at the beginning how funding would be used in the event of some being left over. I'm sure they are right but I can't find it

It's here. 6th paragraph down.

www.crowdfunder.co.uk/sexinthecensus2021

I can only speak for myself, but this has made me very aware of what I'm actually contributing to if I donate.

I didn't really give to 'recording sex on the census' court case, did I? I donated to FPFW and their latest campaign was the census.

The problem I have is that i don't agree to everything FPFW are campaigning for, so I need to consider that when the next crowdfunded comes around. I may agree with the highlighted case, but it's just that, one case that may or may not use my cash. I could be contributing to other, less publicised causes that I'm not on board for.

This is the paragraph

If any funds are left over after the legal action they will be used for other Fair Play For Women campaigns.

So still no clear indication of what £100k would be used for.

But my tone is all wrong so 🤷🏻‍♀️

It's on the crowdfunding page - fairly early on in the Overview section.

If any funds are left over after the legal action they will be used for other Fair Play For Women campaigns.

Has the court given an order on who should pay costs in fws Jr? I know they lost so should expect to have to pay but has the court said that?

As I understand it, it was decided early on in the legal proceedings that each side would be responsible for their own costs. So FWS do not have to pay anything apart from their own legal fees.

I don't think it's wrong to question FPFW or any organisation that asks for donations.

I assume that they want to continue to work for this cause, so unless they intend to find alternative revenue sources, they need to be aware of how women feel about their transparency and how likely they will contribute in the future.

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

I can only speak for myself, but this has made me very aware of what I'm actually contributing to if I donate.

I didn't really give to 'recording sex on the census' court case, did I? I donated to FPFW and their latest campaign was the census.

The problem I have is that i don't agree to everything FPFW are campaigning for, so I need to consider that when the next crowdfunded comes around. I may agree with the highlighted case, but it's just that, one case that may or may not use my cash. I could be contributing to other, less publicised causes that I'm not on board for.

I'm glad it's made people more aware.

If you don't agree with everything FPFW are campaigning for (totally fair enough viewpoint), then you shouldn't have given to this cause. As a lot of us have said, it was made pretty clear that any funds surplus to the ONS case requirements would be used for other FPFW campaigns.

You rarely know exactly where your money goes to when giving to charities either - it's all one big pot.

Like a PP, the result we wanted to was achieved and that's the main thing. It's a bonus that there will be money left over for another cause.

I’ve had a little insight into the background work that FPFW do with regards to sport as they have helped me. They’re doing a huge amount of work behind the scenes supporting many women fight the take over of their sport by Stonewall’s anti-women policies.

I have no doubt they have further battles ahead that will need funding and I am more than happy for them to keep my donation to put towards those fights.

I posted on the ‘FPFW won their case and costs’ thread that I’d quite like half of my donation back as I’d since become aware of other fundraisers that I’d like to donate to.

I’ve got to be honest I didn’t fully read all the terms and conditions about what they’d do with the money if it wasn’t used.

I do recall getting an email after my first donation (I donated twice) about an admin error with a link to click through if I wanted my pledge refunded, so I’m not sure why it would be difficult to do that again now.

The problem I have is that i don't agree to everything FPFW are campaigning for, so I need to consider that when the next crowdfunded comes around. I may agree with the highlighted case, but it's just that, one case that may or may not use my cash. I could be contributing to other, less publicised causes that I'm not on board for.

I think this is a fair point. We, rightly, criticise Jolyon and his Good Law Project when they fundraise for issues like PPE contracts then it turns out money raised might go towards challenging the Bell judgement.

FPFW (and others) are a less extreme example than that but crowd sourcing is still fairly new and very unregulated. There's a strong chance I will support whatever FPFW do next but it's not guaranteed.

I'm not comfortable with the idea that FWS might go under when a bit of teamwork between orgs could help them out and jointly tackle what's going on in Scotland inc the census coming up in a years time. I don't think the main grass roots Scottish women's org should be left out of plans for their own census.

I take the point someone made earlier that we need to continue supporting FWS individually if we can and I've done just that this morning but I'm aware it might not be enough.