Fundraisers & questions

[WTFSeriously]

I'm posting this here as I saw something on twitter & it got me thinking. As there's still no clarity from one org who fundraisered for court action, I'm throwing out a question to others on their views on this.

FPFW fundraiser (now closed) states:

On 3rd March 2021 we successfully raised £101,000 with 3259 supporters in 14 days

With the reason for the fundraiser being:

Fair Play For Women needs to raise funds for an emergency judicial review of the definition of sex being used in the Census 2021.

FPFW chose crowdfunder, not crowdjustice to raise the money so it's their money now, not with their solicitors. We know they won, and the ONS will be responsible for their costs. Final bills haven't yet been confirmed, but leaving aside the elements of their costs not covered, there's still a significant sum that's been raised specifically to fund the "emergency judicial review" which didn't happen as the ONS conceded.

FWS lost their case. They had raised enough cash to cover their challenge, only for costs to be increased significantly due to the intervention of the Equality Network/STA. As things stand, they can't even seek advice on whether to challenge the outcome as they haven't covered their increased costs, and are likely to go bankrupt if they can't pay up. So not only will they cease to exist, but the question of challenge to the judgement will remain unanswered.

Had the 1st fundraiser been a crowd justice one, the portion of the fund not required would (I think) automatically be refunded. As FPFW chose a different method for their case, the decision on whether to refund lies with them.

From my POV, I'd like a refund & would divert that to FWS if I had the choice. But, atm, that's not a choice being given.

So, my question for others here is, what is your choice?

A) FPFW keep all the money raised - it's their CF, they can do what they want.
B) FPFW give those who contributed the choice of refund or not, and FPFW decide what to do with what's left.
C) FPFW refund the balance to everyone after costs settled/action completed
D) FPFW contribute directly to FWS fund, and keep the balance.
E) Other - specify in replies.

I've no doubt FPFW will think this is none of my business. I donated, so I think it is my business. I've also donated to FWS so that's (IMO) my business too. And more so as I'm in Scotland so I'm impacted by the FWS case.

Open to others now to have a say.

Here's my original Q

From my POV, I'd like a refund & would divert that to FWS if I had the choice. But, atm, that's not a choice being given.

So, my question for others here is, what is your choice?

I asked what others thought & laid out options. Instead of answering the Q, there's been poster after poster going after me, in ever more bizarre ways, and it keeps coming. Not answering the Q posed.

The choice of doing nothing was there in the original post. I was happy to talk through opinions. What I'm quite taken aback by is the lengths some have gone to, to suggest I'm asking in bad faith, have alternative motives, and plenty of other insults as well.

What's very clear is that those close to FPFW have been rattled by this thread & think the best response was to attack me, not address the question asked. I'm sure you all feel quite pleased with your efforts. The wider picture is that there's a pretty cut throat 'industry' developing around the fight on women's rights & an expectation of continuing financial support with zero oversight or accountability.

Suddenly finding yourself with £100k and no immediate plans is reason enough to ask the question I did. But it seems it's reason enough for Nic's cheerleaders to smear one of your contributors for just asking a question on funding & what they intended to use it for, seeing as they expected to have to go through the full JR.

And again, I won't shut up just cos Nic's cheerleaders don't like it highlighted just how much funds they have and how little we know about where it's going. If FPFW think they can just keep throwing out insults instead of actually engage (I know! Shocking idea isn't it? Actually engage with the group you keep coming to for cash - what a novel and unusual suggestion ) then I'll keep highlighting the lack of transparency & accountability so that more people are aware and can decide if they're happy with that. I've said I'm not, and it makes no difference to FPFW funds. But I keep getting the insults & smears. Really?

There is a general problem with funding for the various fights & there does need to be a discussion. It it seems those benefiting most from the funding don't want that discussion to take place.

So, those of you who don't like the lack of transparency about "future campaigns," did you contact FPFW before donating to ask for detail, or to explain you weren't comfortable with it? Or did you think it was unlikely the case would be won and it would be a moot point?

I don't think you're wrong to want to know where your money goes, but it seems like it would be more effective to speak directly to an organisation before giving money to them under certain terms, than to decide later that you don't like the terms and then speak about, rather than to, if you know what I mean.

I agree that transparency is really important but I also think it's unreasonable to not give it some time for the detail to be laid out.

Have you contacted FPFW?

@WTFSeriously

Here's my original Q

From my POV, I'd like a refund & would divert that to FWS if I had the choice. But, atm, that's not a choice being given.

So, my question for others here is, what is your choice?

I asked what others thought & laid out options. Instead of answering the Q, there's been poster after poster going after me, in ever more bizarre ways, and it keeps coming. Not answering the Q posed.

The choice of doing nothing was there in the original post. I was happy to talk through opinions. What I'm quite taken aback by is the lengths some have gone to, to suggest I'm asking in bad faith, have alternative motives, and plenty of other insults as well.

What's very clear is that those close to FPFW have been rattled by this thread & think the best response was to attack me, not address the question asked. I'm sure you all feel quite pleased with your efforts. The wider picture is that there's a pretty cut throat 'industry' developing around the fight on women's rights & an expectation of continuing financial support with zero oversight or accountability.

Suddenly finding yourself with £100k and no immediate plans is reason enough to ask the question I did. But it seems it's reason enough for Nic's cheerleaders to smear one of your contributors for just asking a question on funding & what they intended to use it for, seeing as they expected to have to go through the full JR.

And again, I won't shut up just cos Nic's cheerleaders don't like it highlighted just how much funds they have and how little we know about where it's going. If FPFW think they can just keep throwing out insults instead of actually engage (I know! Shocking idea isn't it? Actually engage with the group you keep coming to for cash - what a novel and unusual suggestion ) then I'll keep highlighting the lack of transparency & accountability so that more people are aware and can decide if they're happy with that. I've said I'm not, and it makes no difference to FPFW funds. But I keep getting the insults & smears. Really?

There is a general problem with funding for the various fights & there does need to be a discussion. It it seems those benefiting most from the funding don't want that discussion to take place.

I answered your question in good faith and made no comment about your motive and you haven’t engaged with me at all.

I’d have been pushed to name who was the lead for FPFW although I recognised Nic Williams name when she was mentioned. I’ve never met her or any of the other prominent members. I can’t name any of them but I’d probably recognise some of the names from having been previously mentioned here. So I’m noones cheerleader.

However I recognise everyone in FPFW have done a lot of work and I’m pretty comfortable with them using my donation for the fallback purpose they specified.

I used to be very happy to trust Amnesty to use my donation as they saw fit I’m not anymore so I don’t give them anymore money. I’d love to get back the donations I made in good faith but I recognise thats not happening and I should have kept check what they were using donations for.

@AnneListersHat

I’ve had a little insight into the background work that FPFW do with regards to sport as they have helped me. They’re doing a huge amount of work behind the scenes supporting many women fight the take over of their sport by Stonewall’s anti-women policies.

I have no doubt they have further battles ahead that will need funding and I am more than happy for them to keep my donation to put towards those fights.

You asked a question, I've answered it (A) and my reasons for that answer. It isn't an attack on you OP but neither am I "Nic's cheerleader" just because i support the work FPFW do.

Have you contacted FPFW directly?

We ‘won’ the ONS case, yet all that happened was wording changed and trans people seemed to be ignoring it en masse.

No one can stop people lying on the census. It's up to the authorities to determine who is lying and whether to prosecute.

The point is that ONS tried to claim that the sex on someone's passport is their legal sex when that is not true. If it was, individuals would need a grc to change gender on their passport and that is not the case.

In answer to your original question OP, I'd like
D) FPFW contribute directly to FWS fund, and keep the balance.
to happen but I accept
A) FPFW keep all the money raised - it's their CF, they can do what they want
In response to the vagueness of "future campaigns", I was happy enough with that and hope they'll be ones I agree with. I don't believe it's like RTS as you didn't know where that money was going as RTS was an intermediary so I don't think they are really comparable. It is a good reminder though that people should check what happens to their donation to help them decide whether to donate or not.
In response to:
"I'll ask again - what exactly is it that all this cash is paying for?" you're asking in the wrong place, we're not FPFW

where is this happening: If FPFW think they can just keep throwing out insults instead of actually engage?

I too supported both. And would like D , followed by A.

I would also like to support Sonia Appleby (gids / safeguard lead) but have put some in and can't afford more for the moment.

So funds diverted to her crowd justice would be very welcome too.

But I also accept that money once given is not in my control. FPFW still have my full support - even if they screw up now, I am still glad I supported them and grateful to them for sticking their necks out.

Nothing here reassures me that we’re making any real difference, I’m even questioning if these concerns that brought me here and contribute are valid.

Whilst we celebrate meaningless victories, DV charities are being defunded, and women attacked and murdered and these aren’t linked to trans issues.

I think I have a lot to consider, but I feel I’d do more helping local women’s services rather than throw more money at this.

It might be a very good idea for FPFW to make use of some of their windfall to support those charities that have been defunded because of the TRAs. I think that would demonstrate clearly to them that FPFW are a pro woman charity.

We ‘won’ the ONS case, yet all that happened was wording changed and trans people seemed to be ignoring it en masse.

It was a good win. The ONS were forced to face the consequences of their utter stupidity and questions will be be asked to work out what on earth happened.

One of the really important parts of this case was to ensure that the ONS, as the gold standard source of population data, are not creating a precedent where birth sex is not gathered as standard (or possibly at all) by other researchers.

It helps create a standard that we can point at when fighting with other organisations about the importance of sex data. There will be many such fights I imagine.

If a large number of people with a birth sex of male wish to record themselves as female (and possibly completely hide their trans status because they will presumably also put gender identity as female), then I’m not sure it is too much of a concern for us.

I might have it wrong but as far as I can see the main effect it will have is to make it seem like there are more women than reality for service planning etc. so while it is not ideal and we don’t want money wasted but maybe it will benefit us in the long run (I can hope).

I am very grateful for what FPFW gave done so far. The money I donated has achieved its purpose and I am delighted that the ONS has been forced to make a large donation to them.

I have every faith in them to make great use of the money in the future to do essential work for women rights. Op if you are unhappy I suggest you contact them directly.

I also will like FPFW helps the North sisters )option D). I have also donated to Ann Sinnott and Appleby for Tavistock and others in the last few weeks. Im not getting much money in at present, but I dig and have donated for both FWS and FPFW. I like the idea of trying to pull together and support pledges.
It’s very good some cases are getting through and we should celebrate. We’ll push for the ones that need further support.
A call to dig for FSW thread would be helpful.

if a large number of people with a birth sex of male wish to record themselves as female (and possibly completely hide their trans status because they will presumably also put gender identity as female), then I’m not sure it is too much of a concern for us. in some demographic groups (ie late teens and 20s) it might be the opposite problem. But we can't prevent ppl filling in the census improperly. It's still worth getting the guidence right for the reasons others have said & most ppl generally do what they are asked.

The other really important outcome is that a public body has been told by the high court that it's not allowed to come up with its own preferred definition of sex. It has to use the definition given to it by the law. The whole situation we are in is because public bodies have been defining sex as they wish, rather than as the law says.

I dug for the FPFW census in the full knowledge that if there was a surplus they would use it to fight for other women's causes. Thus once the money left my account I had no further say over it provided it was used for women's causes.

Should FPFW wish to donate some to Ann Sinnott or FWS I trust their judgement.

I am beyond grateful that Nic Williams and co are doing what they do and the last thing I'm going to do is give them an admin headache by asking for the money back.

Hi, sorry I know it's a slightly old thread, but just wondered if anyone else had the problem of Crowdjustice taking their £2.50 extra even though I specifically selected not to include it?

I have only realised that this has happened the last few times I have donated (mostly to FPFW, Allison Bailey, Ann Sinnott etc. so Women's Rights causes).

It's annoying because I specifically stopped giving them the £2.50 add on after how they treated Allison Bailey. And before anyone thinks I'm being unfair, they get 3% of the amount raised, so £2.50 extra per transaction seemed a lot.

Anyway, maybe I have been unlucky, I just wanted to know if anyone else had noticed this?

Until such time as I receive evidence that the money I donated to FPFW is being mismanaged I am happy for them to use it for whatever they deem appropriate. I think they've done exceptionally well so far and I trust that they'll use that fund wisely.

This reminds me that I donated to the woman who was challenging the inclusion of tranwomen in all-women Labour shortlists years ago and haven't heard anything about that case at all. Can anyone update?

Pity there's not a GC multi-millionaire north of the border who could help FWS out...