Fundraisers & questions

[WTFSeriously]

I'm posting this here as I saw something on twitter & it got me thinking. As there's still no clarity from one org who fundraisered for court action, I'm throwing out a question to others on their views on this.

FPFW fundraiser (now closed) states:

On 3rd March 2021 we successfully raised £101,000 with 3259 supporters in 14 days

With the reason for the fundraiser being:

Fair Play For Women needs to raise funds for an emergency judicial review of the definition of sex being used in the Census 2021.

FPFW chose crowdfunder, not crowdjustice to raise the money so it's their money now, not with their solicitors. We know they won, and the ONS will be responsible for their costs. Final bills haven't yet been confirmed, but leaving aside the elements of their costs not covered, there's still a significant sum that's been raised specifically to fund the "emergency judicial review" which didn't happen as the ONS conceded.

FWS lost their case. They had raised enough cash to cover their challenge, only for costs to be increased significantly due to the intervention of the Equality Network/STA. As things stand, they can't even seek advice on whether to challenge the outcome as they haven't covered their increased costs, and are likely to go bankrupt if they can't pay up. So not only will they cease to exist, but the question of challenge to the judgement will remain unanswered.

Had the 1st fundraiser been a crowd justice one, the portion of the fund not required would (I think) automatically be refunded. As FPFW chose a different method for their case, the decision on whether to refund lies with them.

From my POV, I'd like a refund & would divert that to FWS if I had the choice. But, atm, that's not a choice being given.

So, my question for others here is, what is your choice?

A) FPFW keep all the money raised - it's their CF, they can do what they want.
B) FPFW give those who contributed the choice of refund or not, and FPFW decide what to do with what's left.
C) FPFW refund the balance to everyone after costs settled/action completed
D) FPFW contribute directly to FWS fund, and keep the balance.
E) Other - specify in replies.

I've no doubt FPFW will think this is none of my business. I donated, so I think it is my business. I've also donated to FWS so that's (IMO) my business too. And more so as I'm in Scotland so I'm impacted by the FWS case.

Open to others now to have a say.

www.crowdfunder.co.uk/sexinthecensus2021/updates/151379#start
They have issued an update. I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect a detailed project plan etc for something that only happened in the last couple of weeks considering they could have faced bankruptcy if they failed.

We will update with the detail once the cost assessment is complete. This is likely to be a couple of months away. In the meantime, we have already instructed our legal team to undertake the necessary evaluation work to enable us to prioritise and prepare for our next legal challenges.

Thank you again for your support

We are continuing our work in our key focus areas of prisons, sport, language and data. This case was a very welcome victory and we celebrated for a day – now it’s back to work!

@WhatKatyDidNot

Where will the gradual dispersal of these funds be accounted for so all donors can see where their money has gone/is going? Are there plans for this type of transparency? If not, why not?

What does "other FPFW campaigns" mean? Court cases? Legal opinions? Production of campaign materials? Will this detail be laid out accounting for the costs obtained by monies originally destined for the census case? If not, why not?

Will any of this money go on general running costs such as web hosting or salaries? Will the accounting for this be shared? If not, why not?

This stuff matters. If anyone here saying "But I trust Nic, our glorious leader" has also criticised the way Reclaim These Streets originally went about their fundraising then they really need to give their heads a wobble.

It's not personal. It's not a criticism of Nic. Everything Barbara Rich said about Reclaim These Streets can be applied here, even if there was some vaguery of a get out clause in the crowdfund text.

My best suggestion to FPFW is that if you want a general running fund, pay for it by flogging stuff as Posie does. I'd buy loads. Directed donations should be restricted for their original purpose or consulted on before disposal. Just as actual charities have to do. It's that little thing called integrity.

Responding specially to: This stuff matters. If anyone here saying "But I trust Nic, our glorious leader" has also criticised the way Reclaim These Streets originally went about their fundraising then they really need to give their heads a wobble.

But they are not the same. Surely all the fuss we're going through is because of the conflicting view of women's rights and even what a woman is. Donating to Reclaim the Streets for vague women's stuff could therefore mean any of a huge range of stuff. Whereas with FPFW they have a website with a well advertised stance on sex and gender and so I know any campaign they have has a 95% plus of being the sort of thing I agree with. Knowing what they meant by women and stood for wasn't true with the RTS initially.

And as for how FPFW can know which government department is next going to go down the gender/sex rabbit hole like the ONS I really don't know. At least when it does happen they should be able to act really quickly now.

Donating to Reclaim the Streets for vague women's stuff could therefore mean any of a huge range of stuff. Whereas with FPFW they have a website with a well advertised stance on sex and gender

I genuinely can't believe you just posted that. RTS - oh so vague. FPFW - so detailed on their website

It's not! 'Future campaigns' is just as vague as RTS vague women's stuff. No one knew where RTS money was going. We don't know where FPFW money is going either. That's the point!

I get people disagree with the OP but seriously! At least try not to be hypocritical about it! Either transparency matters or or doesn't. If people think the lack of transparency from FPFW is fine, fair enough. But don't try and present it as detailed when it clearly isn't.

We don't know where FPFW money is going either.

No, but they have a strong track record, and for many of us they've built up a lot of trust and goodwill.

That's not nothing. It can to some extent stand in for a lack of transparency.

I was prepared to donate with the clause "any leftover money goes to future campaigns" because of that record. I doubt I would have donated to RTS on that basis, as I don't believe they have any record.

I've just read the latest update from FPFW and am happy to wait a couple of months for further information in the funding position. It seems very unreasonable to expect this until the net costs of the case are known. I also agree that when you give money to crowdfunders, it's very much a case of caveat emptor and I don't give cash unless I'm fully comfortable with both the cause and the fundraiser. In this case I'm just very happy with the result and regard it as a bonus that there should be leftover funds for future action. I also fully support FWS, am gutted by the legal decision in the JR and will donate (yet again).

I just want to put it out there that I have a mattress to sell.

Well I haven't seen anyone on this site buying what you've been peddling up to now Shizuku so I wouldn't get your hopes up too much.

@DialSquare

Well I haven't seen anyone on this site buying what you've been peddling up to now Shizuku so I wouldn't get your hopes up too much.

You may be right, though there is something of a precedent for buying mattresses with crowd-funded money, so I thought it was worth a try.

@DialSquare

Well I haven't seen anyone on this site buying what you've been peddling up to now Shizuku so I wouldn't get your hopes up too much.

I would be very surprised if FPFW aren't in touch with FWS

@TheShadowyFeminist

Donating to Reclaim the Streets for vague women's stuff could therefore mean any of a huge range of stuff. Whereas with FPFW they have a website with a well advertised stance on sex and gender

I genuinely can't believe you just posted that. RTS - oh so vague. FPFW - so detailed on their website

It's not! 'Future campaigns' is just as vague as RTS vague women's stuff. No one knew where RTS money was going. We don't know where FPFW money is going either. That's the point!

I get people disagree with the OP but seriously! At least try not to be hypocritical about it! Either transparency matters or or doesn't. If people think the lack of transparency from FPFW is fine, fair enough. But don't try and present it as detailed when it clearly isn't.

FPFW definitely know what a woman is. This is not true of everyone nor every women's campaign group -surely you can see that??! I don't know where the money is going (I suspect FPFW don't either) but I know where it is not. That's the point. How's that hypocrisy? You might disagree but it is not hypocrisy. FPFW have flipping great list of their beliefs - which I sign up to - so I do know!

fairplayforwomen.com/about-us/our-beliefs/

I don't know where the money is going

It's not! 'Future campaigns' isjust as vagueas RTSvague women's stuff. No one knew where RTS money was going. We don't know where FPFW money is going either. That's the point!
Future campaigns are by definition uncertain - we didn't think would need to take action over the census just a few weeks ago. What actions are needed depends on what actions others take to undermine women's rights.
This is a huge victory and I'm fully behind FPFW's strategy having watched their development from the start.

so I know any campaign they have has a 95% plus of being the sort of thing I agree with

What, like campaigning to repurpose disabled toilets for the [insert current acceptable term, I've no idea what eggshells I might tread on if I pick one which is why I rarely post here these days)? Or no challenge to "legal sex" being in the same category as actual sex?

Look, I'm being devil's advocate here. I like FPFW. I like Nic. Not perfect but who is? I'm considerably more of the no pasaran bent than Nic's libfem change within structures approach but that's okay too. It's not about me. It's not about Nic.

It's about accountability and transparency. It's about making sure we all get the most bang for the buck in an environment where there's so much to do and only ordinary women's spare fivers to do it with. It's about not acting as though you're entitled to oversight of these ill-afforded fivers with no consultation with the women who have given them.

A bloody mailing list survey. Seriously. That's an affront to anyone's dignity? I really do not think so.

Future campaigns are by definition uncertain

And again, you are confirming the point made. Not quite sure why it keeps getting repeated. FPFW are sat on a large sum of cash for some unknown, unspecified future campaign(s) and won't/can't say if/when they'll need to use that money but they definitely won't be asking anyone what they should do with it.

I'm glad we're clear on how transparent this all is.

are sat on a large sum of cash

I doubt they've seen a penny of anything yet.

but they definitely won't be asking anyone what they should do with it.

Eh? Have any of you lot actually discussed this with them?

I'd certainly be in favour of a poll of donors, but I'm not going to get upset that one hasn't happened within a week of the case, with it never being promised, and when I've only decided to rant about it on a random message board.

Might I suggest trying this out in AIBU? They might be able to reassure you.

Some touched nerves on here it seems.

We will update with the detail once the cost assessment is complete. This is likely to be a couple of months away. In the meantime, we have already instructed our legal team to undertake the necessary evaluation work to enable us to prioritise and prepare for our next legal challenges.

I have much more faith in someone who is taking legal advice, and evaluating priorities than someone doing an off the cuff vox pop survey. I'm sure when they decide what to pursue they will be transparent about why and put in the hard work to make it actually happen.

someone doing an off the cuff vox pop survey

I'll add this to the list of things I'm very bad at.

This has been a very enlightening experience. Not seeing women generally have their say and disagree. But those who made the effort to slap down any criticism of FPFW. Nice PR job.

Here's hoping that the women behind FWS don't find themselves in financial difficulties/risk their homes/financial security while FPFW count their beans. Sisterhood and all that eh?

@WhatKatyDidNot

so I know any campaign they have has a 95% plus of being the sort of thing I agree with

What, like campaigning to repurpose disabled toilets for the [insert current acceptable term, I've no idea what eggshells I might tread on if I pick one which is why I rarely post here these days)? Or no challenge to "legal sex" being in the same category as actual sex?

Look, I'm being devil's advocate here. I like FPFW. I like Nic. Not perfect but who is? I'm considerably more of the no pasaran bent than Nic's libfem change within structures approach but that's okay too. It's not about me. It's not about Nic.

It's about accountability and transparency. It's about making sure we all get the most bang for the buck in an environment where there's so much to do and only ordinary women's spare fivers to do it with. It's about not acting as though you're entitled to oversight of these ill-afforded fivers with no consultation with the women who have given them.

A bloody mailing list survey. Seriously. That's an affront to anyone's dignity? I really do not think so.

Sigh. That's why I said 95%.

I’m sure there are those who would like to undermine confidence in the crowdfunding facilities that have helped women resist the trans ideology.

If people aren't happy about donating to a particular crowdfunder, they’re free to spend their money on something they think more useful.

I’m sure there are those who would like to undermine confidence in the crowdfunding facilities that have helped women resist the trans ideology.

🤦🏻‍♀️

Really, it's getting beyond surreal now.

So my tone is off. I'm not posting in good faith. I should think about what I'm doing. I'm hammering a wedge into FPFW successful funding. I'm a bit thick for not getting the vague non-specific plans FPFW intended all along with £100k. And now I'm a TRA?

Honestly, this has been fascinating to be on the receiving end of this shite. Well done all you Nic cheerleaders. Fabulous job 👏👏👏

Any more insults? I mean, I asked for opinions on whether £100k raised could or should be used for the benefit of other women who risked their own security & lost, and are facing bankruptcy. But do keep all the smears & insults coming. Cos that's really heartening to hear all the concerns over me, a nobody, and ignore the plight of other women while sitting on huge sums of cash.

Fucking unreal.

I’m a long time lurker, first time poster. Having read this thread I have concerns over how these groups are run.

I totally back the campaigns and have donated what I can. However I’m concerned about how the funds are being used and how much success we’re actually having.

Do the groups have accounts, so I can see what is raised and how it’s spent? It would reassure me to know where it’s going.

The lack of transparency that’s been raised in this thread is bothering me.

The other issue is what have we achieved, what material difference has all our fundraising made?

We ‘won’ the ONS case, yet all that happened was wording changed and trans people seemed to be ignoring it en masse. The ONS has not indicated that these people will be fined for this. So what did the 100k raise actually achieve?

FSW raised a considerable sum and the judge cited a number of cases suggesting that the idea that TWAW has been tested in law, back in 2002 and the definition of woman has included trans women fir 20 years. So, another huge sum with no actual tangible benefits.

This case also suggests that trans women without a GRC should be treated as women, so did everything with GRA reform achieve anything?

I’ve even recently found that the review of trans women in female wards Matt Hancock announced did nothing but to reaffirm that they should be placed on female wards.

Im so sorry for the long post, but I’m genuinely questioning whether I’ve been taken for a fool.

I think OP the issue is you had a choice as to whether or not to donate based on the information FPFW provided. It was very clear that surplus funds would be used for unspecified other causes. It was up to you at that point to decide whether or not you were comfortable to contribute.

Having contributed on the information provided, it seems that you are moving the goalposts and want new information. It is this which is odd.

We ‘won’ the ONS case, yet all that happened was wording changed and trans people seemed to be ignoring it en masse. The ONS has not indicated that these people will be fined for this. So what did the 100k raise actually achieve?

It raised a lot of awareness of the problems around conflating sex and gender identity in law. It's unfortunate the ONS caved before a full JR but it's important that the line is held when biological sex matters. This is what the case achieved.

As far as I know the ONS have been investigating reports of people not sticking to the guidelines. Whether anything will come of that I don't know.

FSW raised a considerable sum and the judge cited a number of cases suggesting that the idea that TWAW has been tested in law, back in 2002 and the definition of woman has included trans women fir 20 years. So, another huge sum with no actual tangible benefits.

Is this a reference to the Kirklees case? As far as I know that case wasn't able to set precedent because it wasn't at a high enough level.

In summary nobody has been taken for a fool. This discussion isn't really about the ONS case which most people here supported but where surplus funds should be directed.

I realise it looks like people in-fighting but actually it's healthy to have these discussions and police ourselves a bit when it comes to fundraising. Women have strongly disagreed with each other on this thread but questions should always be allowed to be asked. #nodebate is their strategy not ours.