Fundraisers & questions

[WTFSeriously]

I'm posting this here as I saw something on twitter & it got me thinking. As there's still no clarity from one org who fundraisered for court action, I'm throwing out a question to others on their views on this.

FPFW fundraiser (now closed) states:

On 3rd March 2021 we successfully raised £101,000 with 3259 supporters in 14 days

With the reason for the fundraiser being:

Fair Play For Women needs to raise funds for an emergency judicial review of the definition of sex being used in the Census 2021.

FPFW chose crowdfunder, not crowdjustice to raise the money so it's their money now, not with their solicitors. We know they won, and the ONS will be responsible for their costs. Final bills haven't yet been confirmed, but leaving aside the elements of their costs not covered, there's still a significant sum that's been raised specifically to fund the "emergency judicial review" which didn't happen as the ONS conceded.

FWS lost their case. They had raised enough cash to cover their challenge, only for costs to be increased significantly due to the intervention of the Equality Network/STA. As things stand, they can't even seek advice on whether to challenge the outcome as they haven't covered their increased costs, and are likely to go bankrupt if they can't pay up. So not only will they cease to exist, but the question of challenge to the judgement will remain unanswered.

Had the 1st fundraiser been a crowd justice one, the portion of the fund not required would (I think) automatically be refunded. As FPFW chose a different method for their case, the decision on whether to refund lies with them.

From my POV, I'd like a refund & would divert that to FWS if I had the choice. But, atm, that's not a choice being given.

So, my question for others here is, what is your choice?

A) FPFW keep all the money raised - it's their CF, they can do what they want.
B) FPFW give those who contributed the choice of refund or not, and FPFW decide what to do with what's left.
C) FPFW refund the balance to everyone after costs settled/action completed
D) FPFW contribute directly to FWS fund, and keep the balance.
E) Other - specify in replies.

I've no doubt FPFW will think this is none of my business. I donated, so I think it is my business. I've also donated to FWS so that's (IMO) my business too. And more so as I'm in Scotland so I'm impacted by the FWS case.

Open to others now to have a say.

@WTFSeriously

It's vague, non-specific & it wasn't the main aim of the CF. It's not that complicated. They tried fundraising for that sole purpose previously & it wasn't supported. Neither was funding a salary for Nic Williams. Will she be taking a salary from the funds raised? Future campaigns doesn't give any details on that either.

Its a stretch to claim that everyone contributing to the ONS is happy now to fund these non-specific vague campaigns & pay NW salary, when that wasn't the case only a short time ago.

I just wanted to correct this statement. The general fundraiser for FPFW raised, I think £50 or £60k last year. It was supported, and enabled Dr Williams to carry on working. I understand that you’re frustrated, WTF, about this current fundraiser, but this statement isn’t accurate and I’m really not sure why you’ve gone there.

I think it’s important to discuss where funds are coming from and how they’re used, and I’m not saying that you shouldn’t ask for clarity on that in regards to the ONS funding at all. Did you contact them? Did they respond?

Personally, I am happy that my donation is used for other FPFW campaigns, because that was my understanding when I donated. I’m not being brainwashed to say that, it’s my genuine feeling.

this statement isn’t accurate and I’m really not sure why you’ve gone there.

They launched a CF for £100k for a salary for Nic & 'running costs' or whatever it was. They got nowhere near their target and it barely passed £20k for quite some time.

And if they have this £50/60k as well as the £100k from the ONS case, I'll ask again - what exactly is it that all this cash is paying for? 'Future campaigns' by any stretch of imagination isn't transparent or accountable.

WTF I think the best idea is for your to take this up with FPFW. I hope you get some clarity/your money back.

The FPFW raised money to fund the ONS action and used it for that. So I do not feel entitled to a refund. It would be nice if they supported FWS especially if there is a chance they could appeal. I am sure they would do other good work with it but maybe some?

I'll ask again - what exactly is it that all this cash is paying for? 'Future campaigns' by any stretch of imagination isn't transparent or accountable.

Might I suggest some patience? It's what, less than a week since winning the case? And they presumably haven't even got all the accounting from that settled, and likely haven't even received any actual costs payment yet.

I suspect they were too busy during the case to figure out what to do with the money if they won, and I think doing so might have been something of a distraction from what they should have been doing, which was running that case.

So "what is it paying for"? Nothing, yet.

How fast do you want them to pin down the future campaigns? Do they need to roadmap the next years activities with you in advance, by Friday?

None of us have a crystal ball to see into the future so we have to trust their track record to choose worthwhile fights in the future. Look at what they’ve achieve on barely any money - a seat at the table at IOC meetings, the only women’s group representative at the World Rugby workshops, the Judicial Review for prison policy and now the ONS.

£53k in November 202 for FPFW to fund:

What will your donation pay for?
• A salary for our full-time director (discounted to below industry standards).
• Website costs and maintenance
• Continuing development of our evidence-base and policy guidelines
• Lobbying and provision of training
• Travel expenses and conference fees

• Legal advice

£100k for the ONS case now to be "used for other Fair Play For Women campaigns".

That's a lot of cash to be sitting on. But apparently it's 'too much effort' to canvas opinions from those who donated to the ONS case via the email list from the CF platform.

But I'm apparently not allowed to voice an opinion here cos 🤷🏻‍♀️

@WTFSeriously

this statement isn’t accurate and I’m really not sure why you’ve gone there.

They launched a CF for £100k for a salary for Nic & 'running costs' or whatever it was. They got nowhere near their target and it barely passed £20k for quite some time.

And if they have this £50/60k as well as the £100k from the ONS case, I'll ask again - what exactly is it that all this cash is paying for? 'Future campaigns' by any stretch of imagination isn't transparent or accountable.

I don’t have access to that information. I really do think dropping them an email and asking what their plans are when the dust has settled would be your best move. They’re reasonable people, and I’m sure they can set your mind at rest.

The terms and conditions were set out up front, so I am really not sure why you are so angry, to be honest. I think they achieve a massive amount on a shoestring, and I’m happy with the level of transparency. You’re obviously not, but that’s your prerogative. Ask them! I’m still not clear if you’ve actually raised this with the people who can help you with it.

as someone who has worked on a number of campaigns (not in this field) the majority of the money goes on paying for people's time and expert advice along with administration costs.

Best thing to do is to contact FPFW and ask them what their future plans are but also as PP said, I dont think its unreasonable to have a bit of patience. It was only last week after all

But I'm apparently not allowed to voice an opinion

Of course you are! But people are allowed to have a different opinion to you.

Where will the gradual dispersal of these funds be accounted for so all donors can see where their money has gone/is going? Are there plans for this type of transparency? If not, why not?

What does "other FPFW campaigns" mean? Court cases? Legal opinions? Production of campaign materials? Will this detail be laid out accounting for the costs obtained by monies originally destined for the census case? If not, why not?

Will any of this money go on general running costs such as web hosting or salaries? Will the accounting for this be shared? If not, why not?

This stuff matters. If anyone here saying "But I trust Nic, our glorious leader" has also criticised the way Reclaim These Streets originally went about their fundraising then they really need to give their heads a wobble.

It's not personal. It's not a criticism of Nic. Everything Barbara Rich said about Reclaim These Streets can be applied here, even if there was some vaguery of a get out clause in the crowdfund text.

My best suggestion to FPFW is that if you want a general running fund, pay for it by flogging stuff as Posie does. I'd buy loads. Directed donations should be restricted for their original purpose or consulted on before disposal. Just as actual charities have to do. It's that little thing called integrity.

Personally, I felt like this had a very slim chance of success on this short timescale. I thought it was money being pissed against the wall.

I'm quite happy to let what has been one of the most effective organisations in this area incorporate my donation into their future plans as they see fit, and I made the donation on that basis - I checked that statement and was happy with it. (In part because I did not really expect a win, so it seemed moot).

But I agree that given the sums involved, I would be expecting to see some decent accounts of where it ends up being used, for transparency purposes.

But not this early!

They really will not have been incorporating this windfall into any previous plans, so I'm sure they're going to have their work cut out figuring what they could do with that money. And I agree that bailing out FWS for their loss should be a possibility, and I don't disagree with polling donors if technically feasible.

On general transparency, at some point the bigger organisations like FPFW will have to become real organisations with more formal structure and openness. A lot of outfits like LGB Alliance are still in a sort of nowhere land between "couple of people in a pub" and a real organisation. FPFW is getting quite real. But still not real enough to actually have more than 1 staff.

If the original crowdfunding page for FPFW stated that leftover funds would be used for other campaigns by the same organisation, then I'm afraid it is a caveat emptor situation. The time to question FPFW was before you gave them money under those terms--"Hey, this 'other campaigns' thing is a bit vague, can you clarify?" and then make an informed decision about whether you were happy with your donation being used that way.

I know that's really frustrating and I agree there would be some benefits to a central way of handling this, though I'm sure there are also risks involved in that.

Have you tried contacting FPFW about your donation directly? Apologies if you already said this and I forgot, my brain is like a sieve these days.

This has raised an issue that’s been bothering me for some time. It’s not just FPFW, but the lack of transparency in so many of these crowdfunders. For women who don’t have much and keep ‘digging’ in good faith, it’s concerning that money not spent or leftover from crowdfunders is going who-knows-where? Even with successful cases, there’s never any accounts to see after everyone stops celebrating the win.

I’m reminded of the Jennifer James ‘All women’s shortlist’ case against Labour - the last I heard she had about £40,000 sitting in her personal bank account, and it’s been months and months since there was any activity on the case.

Even the Crowdjustice crowdfunders are somewhat questionable. Apparently if any money isn’t spent then the crowdfunder owner can just ‘gift’ it to another Crowdjustice crowdfunder - who knows what that would be for?

I have to agree with the OP that I feel like my good will (and finances) are running thin. There’s lots of women who have been significantly impacted by Covid, yet just a handful of people seem to be starting lots of crowdfunders with no accountability and no transparency. I think it’s wrong that we seem to be funding them personally, when so many of us do lots of work (rightly so) totally unpaid.

@AnneListersHat

But I'm apparently not allowed to voice an opinion

Of course you are! But people are allowed to have a different opinion to you.

No, Ive been told my tone is off. I'm not posting in good faith. I should think about what I'm doing. I'm hammering a wedge into FPFW successful funding. I'm a bit thick for not getting the vague non-specific plans FPFW intended all along with £100k.

Disagree with me? Fine. Smear me or try to discredit me? I'm going to keep asking why because the reaction to questioning FPFW on the transparency with their funding or asking why they don't give those who have donated a say on the unexpected £100k they now have, on top of the £53k they raised in November, tells me more than the Nic cheerleaders who have descended here.

And this is all going on while FWS are on the brink of folding. That sickens me. I'm not going to 'tone it down' or shut up. There's not a bottomless pit of cash floating around for women's causes and what little money there is needs to be smartly used. I don't think it's smart to be sitting on £150k for 'future campaigns' while another folds.

I don't get why people are upset. FPFW used the money for exactly the purpose described and got a brilliant result. The reimbursement would just be legal costs and probably not all of those. There would be other costs probably taken from their previously raised funds. When expenditure related just to the ONS action is finally balanced out I expect less than half the amount would be left.

But you did have a say. By reading the (vague) terms and choosing whether to proceed with your donation at that time.

That said, contact FPFW directly and ask to resolve it? As you would with a business if you were unhappy with the delivery of an agreed-on service?

Thanks for the reminder of FWS as I've just hopped over to give them a donation.

I have to agree with the OP that I feel like my good will (and finances) are running thin. There’s lots of women who have been significantly impacted by Covid, yet just a handful of people seem to be starting lots of crowdfunders with no accountability and no transparency. I think it’s wrong that we seem to be funding them personally, when so many of us do lots of work (rightly so) totally unpaid.

That's a shame RedHoodGirl, which ones did you donate to?

I donated and was happy to let my donation go to running costs if it wasn’t needed. I’ve been involved in a few not for profit organisations and there’s huge amounts of work involved by the organisers so I felt FPFW was getting to the point where some salaries might need to be paid and did contribute to that cause.

Compared to my donation regret when I found out what Amnesty International had become I’m happy my contributions are mostly being used the way I want, (JJ and AWS not withstanding)

At this point I’d welcome more coordination between cases and I’d like to see the crowdjustice cases say who they would pass unused funds to.

[quote Signalbox]It would be helpful if fpfw could point out where they said at the beginning how funding would be used in the event of some being left over. I'm sure they are right but I can't find it

It's here. 6th paragraph down.

www.crowdfunder.co.uk/sexinthecensus2021[/quote]
Thank you! That's exactly what I was looking fir. Don't k ow why I couldn't see it.

@Tibtom

I don't get why people are upset. FPFW used the money for exactly the purpose described and got a brilliant result. The reimbursement would just be legal costs and probably not all of those. There would be other costs probably taken from their previously raised funds. When expenditure related just to the ONS action is finally balanced out I expect less than half the amount would be left.

The problem is we don't know.

Some may not contribute to the next appeal because they wrongly think that FPFW have £100,000+ spare. Or conversely, think that they are contributing to a financial strapped organisation when they are not and their money would make more impact somewhere else.

I don't want some women to lose out because one organisation has better PR. It's not a criticism of any group, it's just transparency and making the best use of money.

I'm happy with FPFW to keep the money for a war chest.

It is good luck (aka enormous amounts of hard work, skill and energy) that the money gathered managed to achieve the stated aim without being spent permanently (they still need the ONS to stump up as I understand)?

I agree with pp that they have enough on their plate atm and I wouldn't want to burden them with trying to organise refunds.

As I see it, the money was used to achieve the stated aim - if the ONS decided to make a large donation to FPFW, that's their business and FPFW can direct it in a way that they see fit.

This thread has been picked up by our monitors on twitter and they are sniggering about possible bankruptcies.

My feeling is that if you choose to donate to a crowdfunder with wording as that one had, you are choosing to trust the organisation involved to use your money wisely. There are plenty of other cases where donations are needed that are via crowd justice or otherwise more specific. If some people prefer that they can donate to those. There's no shortage of holes to dig.

I am immensely grateful to FPFW for taking on a huge challenge at such short notice. They did a brilliant job and as far as I'm concerned they can spend my £20 on champagne if they want to. I paid to have the census guidance sorted out, I got what I paid for.

I know they won't though. And FPFW with a (small in legal terms) fighting fund at the ready is an exciting prospect.

The idea of a general women's fighting fund is in theory attractive. In practice, I think it would be too difficult. It would be too hard to agree which of the many deserving projects got what money, some would miss out, it would become political and sour quickly. In my head I'm allocating my own personal fund of what I want to put in each month and sending out to projects that I want to support as they come up.

I think it’s a shame that such a tiny outfit has to deal with such huge sums but that’s the nature of the beast, and necessary for legal fights.

It’s a lot of responsibility and not one I’d want.

But given they’ve said they won’t know full details for a couple of months and that they told us upfront what they would do with any extra money, I’m not complaining about any of it.

If you want a refund either contact them directly and see if that’s possible or suggest to them they contribute to FWS.

@persistentwoman

I contributed - and am delighted with the outcome. I'm happy to let FPFW decide where to put the remaining funds and refund some if they want to. Have you actually contacted FPFW OP and asked for a response? I just hope that our regular anti-women posters won't use this thread as an opportunity to post their usual word salad of accusations about women / funding / the far right etc.

This, absolutely. It is a lot of money to contributors but not to FPFW who I think are brilliant. I don't believe they will waste it. I am really glad they have got it. I also feel very sorry for FWS but that does not mean FPFW are unreasonable keeping money raised by them for this and subsequent campaigns of their own.

And as someone else said they did say what they would do with surplus funds so people did know what they were donating to at the time - not like the other much vaguer fund that has been circulating recently - so rather unfair to moan now.

They have also been really transparent since the court case. The relevant bit from they crowdfunder page is:

"We raised £101,000 exactly. After Crowdfunder.co.uk deducts its fees + VAT, we received £93,985.79. As we promised when we launched the crowdfunder, any surplus will be put towards other Fair Play For Women campaigns."

So, really not fair to complain at all.

We need to separately try and raise money for FWS as a different thing. If we can't give anymore ourselves then keeping them high on social media will help.