Can we have a 'back-to-basics' thread about trans issue please?

[Aspiringmatriarch]

I hope it's ok to start a thread potentially covering a lot of well-trodden ground on FWR which is probably therefore a bit tedious, but I lurk and read a huge amount on here (and more widely) and I've struggled to come to firm conclusions. My sympathies are more on the 'GC' side which seems pretty common sense to me, but then I step outside this forum and obviously there is a whole different perspective and in fact contradictory information being presented. So I'm left wondering who has what agenda, how reliable all the research and polls and statistics etc actually are, and what to make of it all really.

An example - I've seen posts on here that the widely cited statistics about suicide attempts in young people who are trans or have gender dysphoria, are basically false and scaremongering parents into a medical pathway. Could anyone point me towards information about this?

I see the word ideology bandied about a lot online - 'trans ideology' obviously but also another 'T' ideology I won't post on here (hopefully that's clear!) So essentially there are two competing claims that the other side are antiscience, dogmatic, advancing a quasi-religious belief rather than material reality. As a non-scientist I feel at a disadvantage wading through all the literature as I can't really know if what I'm reading has much good science behind it.

An example - the pink brain/blue brain stuff. I don't feel I have a 'lady brain' and would certainly reject the terminology, but I believe it's the case that there are certain structural differences between male and female brains. Has this been debunked or is it irrelevant to the trans issue? And what's the evidence for the role of hormones in utero? It sounds potentially credible to me but I know gets short shrift on here because it sounds dangerously close to saying women can't do x y z or are 'naturally better' at doing all the low status boring stuff. Which I disagree with obviously but there is some evidence for certain strengths/ areas of interest on average isn't there? Possibly I'm dragging in a whole separate issue but it comes up in the trans discussion as the argument is presumably that trans people are just gnc and have bought into the idea that they're in the wrong body somehow. So the idea of having a gender identity is just sexism. I kind of get that but I'm not sure if explains the dysphoria aspect and things like brain scans showing similar activity in mtf trans and female subjects. I know the concept of being trans has moved away from dysphoria anyway, which leaves me even more perplexed.

I actually have far too many questions for an already overly long post, and a lot more on the political side of things (GRA reform, Keira Bell case etc) but if anyone feels inclined to respond I'd really appreciate it!

Hi OP, here's a new "comprehensive synthesis" of brain studies...

"Highlights
•
Meta-synthesis of 3 decades of human brain sex difference findings.
•
Few male/female differences survive correction for brain size.
•
When present, sex accounts for about 1% of variance in structure or laterality.
•
Male and female brains are monomorphic, not dimorphic, in structure and function."

Here's Professor Lise Eliot's thread explainer:

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=twitter.com/lise_eliot/status/1373315409475072001?s=21 And here's the study:

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763421000804

The Break it down for me thread, lower down the page, is a good starting point.

Link to the break it down for me thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?

You must have some thoughts of your own on it all OP.

Tell us what you think and then we can chip in or not.

I came to the conclusion a while back that the discussion about the issues trans people face is not one I can participate in because I am not trans. I can participate in discussions on the issues that women (on average) face because I am a woman. So I focus on that. I am clear that women experience life in relation to their sexed bodies, and as a group stand together to explain the experiences that are common and to advocate as a group for the needs that are common.

Also as a mother, there are lots on this forum , for clear communications, education, and support for our kids, which includes holding the parent line to prevent them harming themselves where possible through the difficult years of development.

This is where I focus my arguments. The conversations about trans rights are something separate. Important and necessary. But different. The issue is women are being told that we cannot hold those conversations. So the "side" I take is to advocate for women's right to speak. That does not negate the experiences of trans women in my opinion, and it would be far more likely that we could all get along together in society if we acknowledge that.

Thank you, I hadn't seen that one.

[quote TheRabbitOfCaerbannog]Hi OP, here's a new "comprehensive synthesis" of brain studies...

"Highlights
•
Meta-synthesis of 3 decades of human brain sex difference findings.
•
Few male/female differences survive correction for brain size.
•
When present, sex accounts for about 1% of variance in structure or laterality.
•
Male and female brains are monomorphic, not dimorphic, in structure and function."

Here's Professor Lise Eliot's thread explainer:

<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=twitter.com/lise_eliot/status/1373315409475072001?s=21" target="_blank">go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=twitter.com/lise_eliot/status/1373315409475072001?s=21 And here's the study:

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763421000804[/quote]
That's really interesting, thank you.

Thanks, OldCrone, stupid tablet only doing top level links for some reason.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4197899-Trans-train-3

You might find this interesting regarding lack of proper evidence regarding suicide ideation.
Video clips quite enlightening regarding policy being driven by ideology rather than scientific evidence.

"Stonewall School Report: What Does The 45% Attempted Suicide Rate Really Mean?"

www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-school-report-what-does-suicide-rate-mean/

I am hugely concerned about the ethics of repeated references to suicide in this debate. Based on flawed data national advocacy organisations frequently claim young trans people are at higher risk of taking their own lives. The media have been happy to share this, but it goes against the Samaritans' guidelines (see below) and you'd think experienced journalists would be able to spot when suicide is being sensationalised for a political purpose...

These points are from the Samaritans guidelines on reporting on suicide:

• Speculation about the ‘trigger’ or cause of a suicide can oversimplify the issue and should be avoided. Suicide is extremely complex and most of the time there is no single event or factor that leads someone to take their own life.

• Young people are more susceptible to
  suicide contagion. When covering the death of a young person, do not give undue prominence to the story or repeat the use of photographs, including galleries. Don’t use emotive, romanticised language or images – a sensitive, factual approach is much safer. Coverage that reflects the wider issues around suicide, including that it is preventable, can help reduce the risk of suicidal behaviour. Include clear and direct references to resources and support organisations.

For me, for years now, it has been simple.

Do we need a word/ words to describe the cunty half of the global population.

To me the answer is obviously. Of course we do.

That's the basics.

Basically the common view here is to go against what at least 30 globally respected health and psychiatric organisations say then screech about universities being "captured," if they're accepting of trans people.

Asking for opinions on trans stuff here is like asking for opinions on vaccines on an anti-vax board.

Hibari do you think there should be words to describe the cunty half of the world's population?

If so what are they?

If not why not.

@NiceGerbil

Hibari do you think there should be words to describe the cunty half of the world's population?

If so what are they?

If not why not.

I was about to say "Tory," when I realized that by "cunty" you meant "has a vagina."

"Person who has a vagina," seems to be slipping in as the easy call for that since modern society has concluded that not everyone with a vag is a woman and not every woman has a vag.

go against what at least 30 globally respected health and psychiatric organisations say
Which is what? What claim are you suggesting these 30 globally, etc etc might refute? You haven't specified.

What I really cannot understand is why being Trans is looked down on?

Why pretend the obstacles and life experiences never happened?

Why is there not huge pride in just being Trans?

Why is there not a global campaign for acceptance of Transmen or Transwomen?

It baffles me tbh

So eg

Uighar people with vaginas systematically raped in China

Isis trades people with vaginas as sex slaves

Is that correct?

Since this is a forum supposedly dedicated to talking about women's rights, as far as the trans issue goes, the basics are:

1. Do women have the right to single sex spaces, positions, resources, the right to organize as a sex, and should we allow our language to be warped to substituting this kind of language for "woman"?

"Person who has a vagina," seems to be slipping in as the easy call for that since modern society has concluded that not everyone with a vag is a woman and not every woman has a vag.

(gag)

2. Why are so many girls turning to medical transition, and if this is a genuinely helpful course for them to take, why are so many detransitioning?

Why are transwomen and their allies pushing so hard to remove women's rights to our class instead of pushing for rights for their own class?

I will recognise someone as a Man; I will recognise someone as a Transwoman; why can't I be recognised as a Woman?

I'm not against Trans people's right's; I am against the erosion of female sex based rights to give them to Trans people instead. This is safeguarding, not bigotry.

The things which have turned me away from being persuaded by trans ideology is that there are too many inconsistencies and illogicalties.

For instance, Hibari claims that 'people with a vagina' is an acceptable way to describe women. Firstly:

1. Why not just use the word 'women'? If the word woman does not just mean an adult human female, what the hell does it mean? What are the criteria for being a woman?

This is the question nobody can answer. You will be told it is a gender identity, something which is innate, inexplicable and subjective.

Okay, but that isn't a scientific explanation. I believe in gender dysphoria and I know I don't have it. However, how do I know that if I had been born a boy, with exactly the same brain as I have now, and I had been given a boy's name and socialised as a boy my entire life - how do I know that I would have been distressed by this and would have wanted to live as a girl?

Is a woman simply a series of stereotypes? Someone who is more submissive than a man? Someone who likes pink and dresses and high-heeled shoes? You will be told no, of course not, these are simply instances of 'gender expression', which is different from 'gender identity'. You will be told that we on the GC side of the debate are misrepresenting the argument. You will be told that gender identity is something separate from gender expression, and the two don't necessarily tally. So you can get 'tomboy transgirls'. However, this leads us straight back to what is gender identity? And also - have you ever heard of any young male-born child being put on puberty blockers when they have the 'gender expression' of a boy (ie trucks, cars, football etc.) but the innate 'gender identity' of a girl? Oh, certainly you will hear about adult transitioners saying that they were tomboy transgirls when they were kids, but I urge you to try and find a story of a young child (under age 15) whose gender expression 'matches' their biological sex but who still wishes to transition.

2. Some mtf transitioners do have surgery and have a constructed neovagina. Are these therefore 'people with vaginas' too? Should someone with a neovagina be permitted to play sports with, um, 'people with bio vaginas'? Do people with a neovagina require smear tests, or are these reserved for people with a bio vagina (or people with a cervix?)

Are you happy that the word 'woman', a word that has had a fixed meaning since almost the dawn of time is now in the process of becoming so meaningless that women are being described variously as 'people with a cervix', 'people with a bio vagina', 'people with a vulva'.

Which class of people are left out in menstrual huts in certain parts of the world? Which class of people only recently got the right to drive cars in Saudi Arabia? Why was King Henry VIII so upset with his children by Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn? Which class of people are denied the right to inherit titles among the landed gentry in this country? Could any one of those people in those situations been able to escape their circumstances by saying 'I identify as male'?

Finally, even if you accept the premise of gender identity (this innate characteristic that nobody can describe without reference to gender stereotypes) why does this trump biological sex when it comes to things like sports, changing rooms etc.?

The above video is about half an hour long. It is the first in a four-part series tilted Dysphoric and examines many of the issues with trans ideology and the impact on women's rights.

Of particular note is that it is told from a non-western perspective. I highly recommend watching it.

Also OP, to answer your questions specifically -

If there were any evidence that you could have a 'female' brain in a male body, and vice versa, a simple brain scan is all it would take to prove that someone is trans.

Children could have a scan. Hormone levels could be tested. The trans rights activists would be very keen to show a biological basis for their dysphoria. Parents would feel much happier knowing that their child's brains and hormone levels correspond to someone of the opposite sex, thus proving their child is definitely trans.

Yet, there is no such test. Furthermore, no such evidence was put forward in the Keira Bell case.
Despite all the talk of brains and hormone washes, children and adults alike are prescribed medication purely on the basis of subjective feelings.

And the push among the TRAs is not for improved testing. The push is for self-ID.

You do have to ask yourself why.

EdgeofaCoin that's true, but there are other conditions which aren't easy to diagnose like that.

Sorry not to have been back on the thread, I did read the article about (lack of) brain dimorphism in humans which was one of my bigger questions and I think has put that one to bed for me.

I agree really with the posts about focusing on women's rights because biology is the basis of the way we're treated. Looked at that way, it's quite clear. OTOH I'm still trying to figure out how much of the clash between women's and trans rights is real and how much manufactured and don't want to fall into the trap of 'punching down' at another vulnerable group.

Hibari what is being said that goes against health and psychiatric organisations, is it the idea that trans = stereotypes? Is there anything you can share that gives solid information about this? I imagine the organisations you mention are saying more about how best to treat trans patients and what leads to the best outcomes (which I'm also interested in) rather than anything definitive about causes etc?

I love that GC women are the ones supposedly "obsessed with genitals" and then you have TRAs suggesting the perfectly good word for women should literally be replaced with "people who have a vagina".

Why don't we also replace the word "earth" with "big ball floating in space" and "road" with "long grey thing for cars" and "hungry" with "empty tummy"?

Why don't we also replace the word "the" with "shmeegle" and shmeegle word "word" with "ploop" and shmeegle ploop "with" with "bub" and shmeegle ploop bub...