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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can we have a 'back-to-basics' thread about trans issue please?

210 replies

Aspiringmatriarch · 21/03/2021 17:22

I hope it's ok to start a thread potentially covering a lot of well-trodden ground on FWR which is probably therefore a bit tedious, but I lurk and read a huge amount on here (and more widely) and I've struggled to come to firm conclusions. My sympathies are more on the 'GC' side which seems pretty common sense to me, but then I step outside this forum and obviously there is a whole different perspective and in fact contradictory information being presented. So I'm left wondering who has what agenda, how reliable all the research and polls and statistics etc actually are, and what to make of it all really.

An example - I've seen posts on here that the widely cited statistics about suicide attempts in young people who are trans or have gender dysphoria, are basically false and scaremongering parents into a medical pathway. Could anyone point me towards information about this?

I see the word ideology bandied about a lot online - 'trans ideology' obviously but also another 'T' ideology I won't post on here (hopefully that's clear!) So essentially there are two competing claims that the other side are antiscience, dogmatic, advancing a quasi-religious belief rather than material reality. As a non-scientist I feel at a disadvantage wading through all the literature as I can't really know if what I'm reading has much good science behind it.

An example - the pink brain/blue brain stuff. I don't feel I have a 'lady brain' and would certainly reject the terminology, but I believe it's the case that there are certain structural differences between male and female brains. Has this been debunked or is it irrelevant to the trans issue? And what's the evidence for the role of hormones in utero? It sounds potentially credible to me but I know gets short shrift on here because it sounds dangerously close to saying women can't do x y z or are 'naturally better' at doing all the low status boring stuff. Which I disagree with obviously but there is some evidence for certain strengths/ areas of interest on average isn't there? Possibly I'm dragging in a whole separate issue but it comes up in the trans discussion as the argument is presumably that trans people are just gnc and have bought into the idea that they're in the wrong body somehow. So the idea of having a gender identity is just sexism. I kind of get that but I'm not sure if explains the dysphoria aspect and things like brain scans showing similar activity in mtf trans and female subjects. I know the concept of being trans has moved away from dysphoria anyway, which leaves me even more perplexed.

I actually have far too many questions for an already overly long post, and a lot more on the political side of things (GRA reform, Keira Bell case etc) but if anyone feels inclined to respond I'd really appreciate it!

OP posts:
gardenbird48 · 25/03/2021 16:55

"The persecution narrative is likely to be damaging to the mental health of already vulnerable children as well."

The persecution itself is damaging to their mental health. This is from a 10 minute Google browse:

That wasn't the point I was making though. I am asking why a person that appears totally as their birth sex (apart from some baggy clothing) but identifies as trans would feel that they were at risk in public from being trans rather than female (their birth sex).

The passing stranger would correctly read them as female as opposed to trans (btw I'm not saying that if a stranger read them as trans that would be incorrect, it would just be unlikely because they don't look it - this is so hard to explain sometimes within the restrictions).

In the same way that there appears to be no reason for Danielle Muscato or Pips Bunce on a man day to feel at excessive risk from the man in the street due to being trans. If these people don't point out that they don't identify in the same way that they present (ie. Danielle presents as totally male but identifies as female) no one would be any the wiser.

Datun · 25/03/2021 16:55

It is, but most trans people experience it. Do you understand the distinction between "most" and "all"?

Do you have any stats ? I didn't think there were any.

But there are a number of people who have coined the term 'gender euphoria'

ArabellaScott · 25/03/2021 17:11

Being trans is not recognised as a medical disorder or mental health condition

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48448804

Truthlikeness · 25/03/2021 18:17

The NHS also states that gender dysphoria is not a mental health illness.

www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/gender-dysphoria/overview/

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 25/03/2021 21:55

@Jillly

Is gender dysphoria a mental illness?
"By contrast, DSM-5 has removed ‘gender identity disorder’, renaming it ‘gender dysphoria’. It is possible to meet the criteria for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria within DSM-5 without experiencing body dysphoria relating to primary or secondary sexual characteristics,14 and the American Psychiatric Association emphasises that ‘not all transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria’.15

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/sex-gender-and-gender-identity-a-reevaluation-of-the-evidence/76A3DC54F3BD91E8D631B93397698B1A

NiceGerbil · 25/03/2021 22:54

Did you read the message my DD got, Shiz?

These are bog standard kids in the suburbs.

The stuff circulating generally seems to really focus in on being at massive risk, and self harm. It's really worrying.

There are some old threads with more examples I think.

NiceGerbil · 25/03/2021 22:57

And yes it's true that seeing gender dysphoria as a MH condition is not current thinking.

This is why for children, there is a push to accept without exception/ not do counselling to see if there are other things at play/ and this has been encoded in the new bill to ban conversion therapy.

NiceGerbil · 25/03/2021 22:58

Shiz you seem to focus very heavily on

Trans women
Who have dysphoria
Who present as feminine
And who pass

There are loads of other trans people out there and any legislation will apply to all of them.

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 25/03/2021 23:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 25/03/2021 23:25

Because if it's not a mental disorder it reinforces the argument that those experiencing it should be treated with the affirmative model - they don't need dissuading from delusions.

NiceGerbil · 25/03/2021 23:27

Because internal gender ID is a thing that pretty much everyone has, is the best indicator of who you are. That if it disagrees with your body then it's a biological error/ the midwife got it wrong when they assigned your gender (sex) at birth.

As such it's a natural phenomenon and not a MH issue.

No questions should be asked and any and all drug therapies and surgical options should be offered and carried out as requested.

That's what I've read anyway.

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 25/03/2021 23:32

Well that's as clear as mud.

Frankly I know the midwives made a mistake when I was born and assigned me to a poor family when I'm actually royalty. This is a definite error and I demand my inheritance immediately.

Ok. So I know its not the same, and I sound like I'm taking the piss. I'm not. But why is 'knowing' you're the 2nd coming of Christ seen as a MH issue but 'knowing you're actually the opposite sex not. Other than "we have to agree with them"

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 25/03/2021 23:36

Other than "we have to agree with them"

That's what it is isn't it?

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 26/03/2021 08:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn as it quotes a deleted post.

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 26/03/2021 08:07

But there are lots of conditions in DSMV which are not typical psychiatric conditions eg. ADHD, which is seen as more neurodevelopmental. Basically there is a bit of an arbitrary line between what is neurological and what is psychiatric.

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 26/03/2021 08:31

casereports.bmj.com/content/14/1/e238554

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-advances/article/body-integrity-identity-disorder-clinical-features-and-ethical-dimensions/C5D03563635EBBA854B517CD8730FDF6

Body integrity identity disorder is another dysphoria. There is some evidence of a neurological basis for BIID, so it's part way between neurology and psychiatry.

Shizuku · 26/03/2021 11:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn as it quotes a deleted post.

Shizuku · 26/03/2021 11:07

@Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud

casereports.bmj.com/content/14/1/e238554

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-advances/article/body-integrity-identity-disorder-clinical-features-and-ethical-dimensions/C5D03563635EBBA854B517CD8730FDF6

Body integrity identity disorder is another dysphoria. There is some evidence of a neurological basis for BIID, so it's part way between neurology and psychiatry.

Again, this is a completely different condition. Trans people are not seeking disability or dysfunction - your average trans woman wants a completely normal, fully functioning healthy female body - they don't want genital "amputation", they want genital "reconfiguration".

There is a reason the psychologists do not conflate the 2 conditions.

Shizuku · 26/03/2021 11:09

@WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo

Well that's as clear as mud.

Frankly I know the midwives made a mistake when I was born and assigned me to a poor family when I'm actually royalty. This is a definite error and I demand my inheritance immediately.

Ok. So I know its not the same, and I sound like I'm taking the piss. I'm not. But why is 'knowing' you're the 2nd coming of Christ seen as a MH issue but 'knowing you're actually the opposite sex not. Other than "we have to agree with them"

"why is 'knowing' you're the 2nd coming of Christ seen as a MH issue but 'knowing you're actually the opposite sex not."

You can't "know" you are the 2nd coming, unless you actually are.

Most people can observe their gender identity and therefore be aware that it does or doesn't match the sex they were assigned at birth.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/03/2021 11:10

your average trans woman wants a completely normal, fully functioning healthy female body

This is a biological impossibility, like someone with body integrity dysphoria can't have a different body. So it's a psychological issue.

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 26/03/2021 11:11

How do you know what my sense of being a woman is, or any woman's for that matter? What is the difference between how men and women think and feel? We've had some enlightening answers to this, how does woman feel to you?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/03/2021 11:11

Most people can observe their gender identity and therefore be aware that it does or doesn't match the sex they were assigned at birth.

Their biological sex which was observed at birth.

Jillly · 26/03/2021 11:22

"You can't "know" you are the 2nd coming, unless you actually are."
A man cant know he's a woman unless he actually is.
Human dna is 90% the same as a cat.
So why cant I feel like a cat?

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 26/03/2021 11:30

There is a reason the psychologists do not conflate the 2 conditions.

And yet these psychologists (from that article) state:
"There are, similarly, strong parallels between BIID and other identity disorders, such as transsexualism and gender identity disorder. In BIID there is a mismatch between actual and perceived body schema, such that to have the desired amputation or acquired disability becomes a key part of the person's own identity. Onset of this desire also typically occurs in childhood or adolescence and is associated with chronic feelings of dysphoria which are somewhat alleviated by the desire to seek surgical intervention"

Helleofabore · 26/03/2021 11:34

You can't "know" you are the 2nd coming, unless you actually are.

Most people can observe their gender identity and therefore be aware that it does or doesn't match the sex they were assigned at birth.

How? I had a friend who absolutely was convinced he was Christ. He even had a group of followers around the world. He wasn’t doing this as a con, or as a joke. He believed this open heartedly.

Of course, it was discovered that he needed meds and ongoing treatment.