Can we have a 'back-to-basics' thread about trans issue please?

[Aspiringmatriarch]

I hope it's ok to start a thread potentially covering a lot of well-trodden ground on FWR which is probably therefore a bit tedious, but I lurk and read a huge amount on here (and more widely) and I've struggled to come to firm conclusions. My sympathies are more on the 'GC' side which seems pretty common sense to me, but then I step outside this forum and obviously there is a whole different perspective and in fact contradictory information being presented. So I'm left wondering who has what agenda, how reliable all the research and polls and statistics etc actually are, and what to make of it all really.

An example - I've seen posts on here that the widely cited statistics about suicide attempts in young people who are trans or have gender dysphoria, are basically false and scaremongering parents into a medical pathway. Could anyone point me towards information about this?

I see the word ideology bandied about a lot online - 'trans ideology' obviously but also another 'T' ideology I won't post on here (hopefully that's clear!) So essentially there are two competing claims that the other side are antiscience, dogmatic, advancing a quasi-religious belief rather than material reality. As a non-scientist I feel at a disadvantage wading through all the literature as I can't really know if what I'm reading has much good science behind it.

An example - the pink brain/blue brain stuff. I don't feel I have a 'lady brain' and would certainly reject the terminology, but I believe it's the case that there are certain structural differences between male and female brains. Has this been debunked or is it irrelevant to the trans issue? And what's the evidence for the role of hormones in utero? It sounds potentially credible to me but I know gets short shrift on here because it sounds dangerously close to saying women can't do x y z or are 'naturally better' at doing all the low status boring stuff. Which I disagree with obviously but there is some evidence for certain strengths/ areas of interest on average isn't there? Possibly I'm dragging in a whole separate issue but it comes up in the trans discussion as the argument is presumably that trans people are just gnc and have bought into the idea that they're in the wrong body somehow. So the idea of having a gender identity is just sexism. I kind of get that but I'm not sure if explains the dysphoria aspect and things like brain scans showing similar activity in mtf trans and female subjects. I know the concept of being trans has moved away from dysphoria anyway, which leaves me even more perplexed.

I actually have far too many questions for an already overly long post, and a lot more on the political side of things (GRA reform, Keira Bell case etc) but if anyone feels inclined to respond I'd really appreciate it!

I do love the fundamental point about the fecking clownfish.

If you can't properly describe what male and female are, HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY CHANGE SEX?

I have seen people on twitter recently argue there is a ‘social’ meaning of sex that needs to be considered. It was a male who stated it.

No.... the sex class of male or female refers to reproductive capability. It always referred to reproductive capabilities.

Women don’t need it mansplained to us, nor what the axis of our oppression is.

The phrase TWAW, to my mind, is simply an enforcing tactic of activists.

Indeed. This is the response to lesbians.

@Datun - when I see that I feel so angry at the women, who have previously benefited from the fights of feminism, going along with it. I don't really understand how or why that happens. I have seen many of my peer group capitulate and go along with throwing women under the bus. The gaslighting makes me feel dizzy. Those I know who have really experienced trauma now appear shell shocked and uncertain. Not sure who now to trust. OP this is the result of the "be kind" mantra. Those already abused have had their safety net pulled and now perceive those they previously called allies have let them down, those they trusted. It is the reality. Almost unbearable.

Agree about the hectoring, imperative tone of so much of this debate.

Capital letters. Repeated mantras.

REPEAT AFTER ME.

GET USED TO IT.

NO DEBATE.

So hostile and aggressive. Thankfully for the most part the conversation seems to be softening somewhat - I think most people are at least willing to admit now that the issues and potential conflicts between women's rights and trans rights should be discussed.

Apart from the Scottish gulags, of course.

[quote JoodyBlue]@Datun - when I see that I feel so angry at the women, who have previously benefited from the fights of feminism, going along with it. I don't really understand how or why that happens. I have seen many of my peer group capitulate and go along with throwing women under the bus. The gaslighting makes me feel dizzy. Those I know who have really experienced trauma now appear shell shocked and uncertain. Not sure who now to trust. OP this is the result of the "be kind" mantra. Those already abused have had their safety net pulled and now perceive those they previously called allies have let them down, those they trusted. It is the reality. Almost unbearable.[/quote]
I think about that too. And have concluded it's for several reasons.

Partly not wanting to rock the boat, because, as we all know, once you see it, you can never go back. Partly being conditioned in a patriarchal society. Whether that's automatically giving men more credibility or simply not confronting them.

And of course being conditioned into the role of support human. It's a role that can get you a lot of approval. And it ticks a lot of boxes. You're apparently being kind, inclusive, progressive, supporting a minority, and all just by saying some words.

It's a lot harder to say no. But what is happening is that the things women are being asked to agree to are getting more and more obviously misogynistic. So saying no is becoming easier.

Well that gives me some hope. It is very tiring holding the line isn't it? It is only those I care about who are hurting that keeps me holding it sometimes. That and my absolute inability to lie. There are lots of victims in this ideological battle and they are not the ones doing the shouting. On either "side". Not that I think there are "sides" in any case.

Something that I wonder about, if the supposed suicide rates amoung trans people are so high, who are they? Why do we never hear names of actual people.

If so many young people are doing this or attempting to, you would think you'd see reporting on it. Where are all the parents calling for action because their son/daughter tried to or did kill themselves over it? You'd think they'd be hoards of them raising publicity, talking to the press, going on chat shows etc and demanding action but I've never seen even one reported anywhere.

There is no evidence that children and young people who claim to be trans are more likely to commit suicide than others.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There is no evidence that children and young people who claim to be trans are more likely to commit suicide than others.

I was wondering yesterday, if the rates were as astronomical as Mermaids claim, surely we would be seeing this as a result of puberty blockers being all but withdrawn? As it’s ‘life saving treatment’?

@Usagi12

Something that I wonder about, if the supposed suicide rates amoung trans people are so high, who are they? Why do we never hear names of actual people.

If so many young people are doing this or attempting to, you would think you'd see reporting on it. Where are all the parents calling for action because their son/daughter tried to or did kill themselves over it? You'd think they'd be hoards of them raising publicity, talking to the press, going on chat shows etc and demanding action but I've never seen even one reported anywhere.

I’ve also wondered this. Pink News would be all over the stories like a rash even if the MSM weren’t. I follow a range of new outlets on a daily basis, so why do we never hear about this?

surely we would be seeing this as a result of puberty blockers being all but withdrawn?

And you'd have seen the positive result of the 4000% uptick in diagnosis and treatment among girls in the last few years.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There is no evidence that children and young people who claim to be trans are more likely to commit suicide than others.

Yes that was kind of my point 🤣

Sorry for asking, but I've been looking for too long and can't find any data for suicide rates of all teens vs trans teens - on another forum, the "save trans lives by letting them on girls sports" is the rallying call and everyone just nods along in agreement. One poor woman keeps asking for data because now she's scared shitless as her child is trans...everyone is just responding that without inclusive sports on girls teams, her trans girl is at risk of death. I feel awful for her, but also wonder, isn't this terribly irresponsible? What if she has a healthy trans girl who plays sports with boys but now she's worried it's dangerous?

@Delphinium20

Sorry for asking, but I've been looking for too long and can't find any data for suicide rates of all teens vs trans teens - on another forum, the "save trans lives by letting them on girls sports" is the rallying call and everyone just nods along in agreement. One poor woman keeps asking for data because now she's scared shitless as her child is trans...everyone is just responding that without inclusive sports on girls teams, her trans girl is at risk of death. I feel awful for her, but also wonder, isn't this terribly irresponsible? What if she has a healthy trans girl who plays sports with boys but now she's worried it's dangerous?

Basically - there isn’t any. There have been a small handful of studies over the years, with poor controls and a lot of them didn’t take into account pre-existing MH conditions (for example around a third of trans kids have autism). They also only generally look at suicidal feelings rather than how many actually complete the act of suicide.

Keep asking, honestly these myths need exposing.

Yes, keep asking. Because most mainstream journalists aren't. There is no evidence to back up claims of high suicide rates amongst trans young people in the UK. What is most shocking about this situation is that repeatedly telling young people that they are a suicide risk if their wishes aren't affirmed is actively dangerous because we know that young people are susceptible to suicide contagion. As I posted earlier, this is guidance from the Samaritans. Points nine and ten are worth looking at. I don't know how any organic

Organisation in good conscience can repeat claims that aren't true and in the process put young people in further danger:

Thanks Rabbit!!!

Telling kids they are at risk of suicide.
Telling them they are at risk of being assaulted and murdered.
That their life expectancy is 35.
Its almost as if some people want trans kids to be terrified and have mental health problems.
Its a narrative thats serving someone, and it's not the kids.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There is no evidence that children and young people who claim to be trans are more likely to commit suicide than others.

Yes there is:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27238070/

"Results: The gender-referred children and the referred children from the standardization sample had significantly higher scores than siblings and nonreferred children in terms of self-harm/suicidality, total behavior problems, and poor peer relations. Based on logistic regression analyses, gender-referred children were 5.1 times more likely than nonreferred children to talk about suicide and 8.6 times more likely to self-harm/attempt suicide, even after overall behavior problems and peer relationship problems were accounted for."

Need to be compared to the rates among other children with complex issues that get referred to hosp etc.

Not children who are not in that position, or siblings.

Shizuku if one of us can find something to show that young people aren't committing suicide over this in large numbers then that would be good news, right?

Or if they were in no different position with mental health to other children accessing those services.

I did have done stats ages ago about suicide I might be able to find them if they will give you a more positive outlook?

Shizuku if one of us can find something to show that young people aren't committing suicide over this in large numbers then that would be good news, right?

You'd think so, right? Otherwise you might suspect that vested interest were manipulating people by incorporating trans youth suicides into the narrative. Are there UK stats on this you can share Shizuku?

Bold fail in that previous post - that was quoting NiceGerbil

I've just been looking.

There's loads of stuff. The ONS has the figs obviously but I can't see the reasons.

I suppose it would be in the coroner's reports but you'd have to look at it all and collate etc