Can we have a 'back-to-basics' thread about trans issue please?

[Aspiringmatriarch]

I hope it's ok to start a thread potentially covering a lot of well-trodden ground on FWR which is probably therefore a bit tedious, but I lurk and read a huge amount on here (and more widely) and I've struggled to come to firm conclusions. My sympathies are more on the 'GC' side which seems pretty common sense to me, but then I step outside this forum and obviously there is a whole different perspective and in fact contradictory information being presented. So I'm left wondering who has what agenda, how reliable all the research and polls and statistics etc actually are, and what to make of it all really.

An example - I've seen posts on here that the widely cited statistics about suicide attempts in young people who are trans or have gender dysphoria, are basically false and scaremongering parents into a medical pathway. Could anyone point me towards information about this?

I see the word ideology bandied about a lot online - 'trans ideology' obviously but also another 'T' ideology I won't post on here (hopefully that's clear!) So essentially there are two competing claims that the other side are antiscience, dogmatic, advancing a quasi-religious belief rather than material reality. As a non-scientist I feel at a disadvantage wading through all the literature as I can't really know if what I'm reading has much good science behind it.

An example - the pink brain/blue brain stuff. I don't feel I have a 'lady brain' and would certainly reject the terminology, but I believe it's the case that there are certain structural differences between male and female brains. Has this been debunked or is it irrelevant to the trans issue? And what's the evidence for the role of hormones in utero? It sounds potentially credible to me but I know gets short shrift on here because it sounds dangerously close to saying women can't do x y z or are 'naturally better' at doing all the low status boring stuff. Which I disagree with obviously but there is some evidence for certain strengths/ areas of interest on average isn't there? Possibly I'm dragging in a whole separate issue but it comes up in the trans discussion as the argument is presumably that trans people are just gnc and have bought into the idea that they're in the wrong body somehow. So the idea of having a gender identity is just sexism. I kind of get that but I'm not sure if explains the dysphoria aspect and things like brain scans showing similar activity in mtf trans and female subjects. I know the concept of being trans has moved away from dysphoria anyway, which leaves me even more perplexed.

I actually have far too many questions for an already overly long post, and a lot more on the political side of things (GRA reform, Keira Bell case etc) but if anyone feels inclined to respond I'd really appreciate it!

EdgeofaCoin that's true, but there are other conditions which aren't easy to diagnose like that

Are you thinking of conditions like ME?

What I always find curious is why so many people with penises are so threatened and angered by the idea of women having boundaries.

Edge - yes, like ME for example.

An example - the pink brain/blue brain stuff. I don't feel I have a 'lady brain' and would certainly reject the terminology, but I believe it's the case that there are certain structural differences between male and female brains.

Have a read of the gendered brain by Gina Rippon. She does explain exact his well.

The brain is plastic so we need to consider external influences, and actually these can be influenced by gender stereotypes. Eg toys marketed at girls tend to be less about spatial problem solving such as Lego and building; this has been identified as being traceable in the classroom in attainment in that area for girls.

Craft packs tend to be marketed more for girls and art is often seen as a girl's pursuit; there's a huge lack of boys taking art at gcse and a level.

As pp noted, It essentially comes down to the fact that in terms of ability and intelligence and expression, there's absolutely no difference between men and women.

There's more difference to be seen on scans between taxi drivers with and without the knowledge, whether they're male or female. They can trace the impact of learning a second language later in life on brain scans.

There are medical implications for having a female brain, lots of work around Alzheimer's for example and hormones. I'm currently reading a book called the XX brain where the author makes the case for hrt being primarily for brain health.

But my ramble above is v simplistic. There's apparently a lot of bad science and bad extrapolation on brains about as this article describes:

sfonline.barnard.edu/neurogenderings/eight-things-you-need-to-know-about-sex-gender-brains-and-behavior-a-guide-for-academics-journalists-parents-gender-diversity-advocates-social-justice-warriors-tweeters-facebookers-and-ever/

Hi, OP. I know exactly what you mean about the discussions overall. Hard to know which studies and references are reliable if one isnt science-trained. I can only suggest reading not only as much evidence as you can but commentary from both 'sides'.

It's good to be ambivalent and uncertain. 'Modest doubt is the beacon of the wise '. Keep asking questions! There are many very informed and experienced posters on this board.

One difficulty here us that we are so constrained in what we can say. I would like to suggest you look into the work of Ray Blanchard, but saying so may get me deleted. We shall see.

My own simple question is whether women are entitled to single sex spaces. For me it's a yes. Some people thinks it's unimportant and some people find the use of the phrase 'single sex' unacceptable in itself.

@ArabellaScott

Hi, OP. I know exactly what you mean about the discussions overall. Hard to know which studies and references are reliable if one isnt science-trained. I can only suggest reading not only as much evidence as you can but commentary from both 'sides'.

It's good to be ambivalent and uncertain. 'Modest doubt is the beacon of the wise '. Keep asking questions! There are many very informed and experienced posters on this board.

One difficulty here us that we are so constrained in what we can say. I would like to suggest you look into the work of Ray Blanchard, but saying so may get me deleted. We shall see.

My own simple question is whether women are entitled to single sex spaces. For me it's a yes. Some people thinks it's unimportant and some people find the use of the phrase 'single sex' unacceptable in itself.

Thank you, I really appreciate this. I feel like I'm coming on here being that annoying person saying 'educate me!' but I promise I'm not being disingenuous and I have tried to understand all this for a while but it's left me with even more questions. To a certain extent that may just be my personality as I tend to see all sides of things and find it hard to come down on a side.

Watching the Dysphoria doc now, thank you Edge.

It's also always about TW.

When you think about the needs and rights of transmen, you start to see the fallacy.

Which wing (if male/ female) of a psychiatric hospital is the right one for a transman?

Which prison is the right place for a transman to be placed?

Why?

There is an argument around the fact that transmen pass very well and this could be upsetting for very traumatised and vulnerable women in these situations, at the same time the protection of the transman from sexual assault that could result in pregnancy is also paramount.

The protections women require (and have fought hard for and are still struggling for in many parts of the world) are due to our sexed body - menstruation, pregnancy, menopause and being physically weaker. These have nothing to do with whether someone feels female in their head. These are the protections we are fighting to retain.

You want to have a book club for people who feel they are female? Knock yourself out. You want to let male-sexed bodies crush woman in contact sports? We're going to have an issue.

"Person who has a vagina," seems to be slipping in as the easy call for that since modern society has concluded that not everyone with a vag is a woman and not every woman has a vag.

'Woman' works just fine, thanks.

Person who has a vagina," seems to be slipping in as the easy call for that

LOL. It's funny how sometimes it's ok to "reduce people to their genitals."

since modern society has concluded that not everyone with a vag is a woman and not every woman has a vag.

The second is true, the first is not. Everyone with a vagina is a woman. Whatever they choose to call themselves, however they express themselves. Woman just means adult human female.

There's a good radio programme on BBC Sounds at the moment that isn't specifically about trans but has good info about male/female brains and uses sex, not gender, throughout. It's an episode of Crowdscience called Why Men Rule The World? And features Gina Rippon.
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3cszv73

To a certain extent that may just be my personality as I tend to see all sides of things and find it hard to come down on a side.

That's a good thing!

One thing I would watch closely: how does the trans rights lobby consider the position of girls and women? When someone brings up the prospect of an 11-year-old girl not wanting to get undressed in front of her classmate who had been considered a boy until yesterday, what steps do the TRAs take to see the girl's side? How do TRAs treat the situation of women who have been sexually abused and who wish to have intimate examinations carried out by a biological female? How much compassion do TRAs show for people like Keira Bell, and - crucially - what steps are they taking to ensure that the current cohort of transitioners are not going to regret transitioning further down the line?

Of course, it works both ways. You have to look at how GC women consider perspectives from the other side as well.

@Hibari

Basically the common view here is to go against what at least 30 globally respected health and psychiatric organisations say then screech about universities being "captured," if they're accepting of trans people.

Asking for opinions on trans stuff here is like asking for opinions on vaccines on an anti-vax board.

The use of the word "screech" is revealing of the view that women are not allowed to speak, on this, probably not on anything really in your opinion. Not sure why you bothered to post, other than to disparage.

I've seen that trans train documentary before. It's heartbreaking and enlightening in equal measure.

For me, it throws up far more questions than it answers.

The poor young woman who detransitioned berating herself for what she called her stupidity.

The doctor who kept shrugging his shoulders with a 'what were we meant to do whine. Constantly saying that if a patient is in crisis or hates their breasts, they have to operate, right?

Why aren't they asking why? Why are there so many children with gender dysphoria? What's causing it? If the doctors are the end point, and are just reacting to demand, who, exactly, is telling these youngsters that accessing irreversible medical treatment is the answer to their dreams?

Blame is swirling around the doctors, the parents and, unbelievably, the children. But the doctors say, what can we do? We are patient led. The parents say, no-one listens to them. And the child, now older, blames herself.

And OP, you will find, just like every other woman who tries, that attempting to challenge the ideology, countering the baseless claims and holding proponents to account is very difficult. It's met with censorship, silencing and threats.

But I, at least, am heartened by the fact that you are asking. It started as a trickle, but now it's a cascade of people demanding answers.

Don't stop asking.

Quite, Joody.

I would like to say for the record that referring to a woman as a 'person with a vagina' is grossly offensive.

attempting to challenge the ideology, countering the baseless claims and holding proponents to account is very difficult. It's met with censorship, silencing and threats

Even asking questions is likely to meet with this response! Which is where 'no debate' kicked in. Luckily we seem to have started to get past the ridiculous idea that women aren't even allowed to discuss their own bodies, rights, experiences and lives.

Person who has a vagina," seems to be slipping in as the easy call for that since modern society has concluded that not everyone with a vag is a woman and not every woman has a vag.

Of course everyone who as a vagina is a woman. Dear lord.

It's quite amazing that grown-up, presumably rational people, will dismiss chromosomes, reproductive characteristics and anatomy, instantly, in a heartbeat, as a sex marker, in favour of...an inexplicable feeling.

@sonotted

What I really cannot understand is why being Trans is looked down on?

Why pretend the obstacles and life experiences never happened?

Why is there not huge pride in just being Trans?

Why is there not a global campaign for acceptance of Transmen or Transwomen?

It baffles me tbh

This. Why don't they think the term 'transwoman' or 'transman' is good enough as it is? Why not lobby for third, unisex spaces? Why the land grab for our words and spaces?

I will NOT be referred to as a person with a vagina. How dehumanising. My genitals are part of my woman's body. I am a woman.

I find wording like 'systematic rape of people with vaginas' to be extremely dehumanising.

Also simply crass to refer to women in this situation by the organ that identifies them as the ones to be raped, and the part of their body likely to be raped.

It seems utterly crass.

Hibari you say this wording is preferable. I note however that orgs who use this type of language in some circs still refer to women when this type of crime is the headline.

You say they are wrong to do so. Do you have any ideas why they use the language you say is correct in some places but not others?

Can you see at all why 'people with vaginas subject to systematic rape in x situation' is wording I find objectionable? At all?

So if we are talking about women and ‘slip’ to using biology, Shall we try it the other way.

Would people with simulated or replica body parts like to be called people with (insert neo/implant body part)? People who once had .....(insert body part), I don’t want to continue as I am very much against this style of labeling people. It is incredibly dehumanizing. But here we are.

I posted a link a while back to a group of male transitioners who were complaining about the term penis people or people with penises. Males of all genders don’t seem to like this dehumanisation and are getting vocal.

Yet, women are being pushed to accept it. To be kind.

From the Swedish U turn link:

In the clinical setting we have become familiar with narratives, especially in younger children, resting almost entirely on the most superficial of signifiers: toys, activities, hair, clothes, a certain aesthetic upon which effectively the (self) diagnosis of trans is made, and a social role transition affected. Unfortunately these tropes are compounded and perpetuated by some “diversity” trainings delivered in schools.

genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/

the use of the word "screech" is revealing of the view that women are not allowed to speak, on this, probably not on anything really in your opinion

Quite. So much internalised misogyny.

@Helleofabore

So if we are talking about women and ‘slip’ to using biology, Shall we try it the other way.

Would people with simulated or replica body parts like to be called people with (insert neo/implant body part)? People who once had .....(insert body part), I don’t want to continue as I am very much against this style of labeling people. It is incredibly dehumanizing. But here we are.

I posted a link a while back to a group of male transitioners who were complaining about the term penis people or people with penises. Males of all genders don’t seem to like this dehumanisation and are getting vocal.

Yet, women are being pushed to accept it. To be kind.

Yes indeed. If, as Hiberi thinks, the word woman doesn't relate to biology, the the categories will be 'people with a vagina' for what we call women and 'people with a penis' or people with a neovagina' for transwomen.