Can we have a 'back-to-basics' thread about trans issue please?

[Aspiringmatriarch]

I hope it's ok to start a thread potentially covering a lot of well-trodden ground on FWR which is probably therefore a bit tedious, but I lurk and read a huge amount on here (and more widely) and I've struggled to come to firm conclusions. My sympathies are more on the 'GC' side which seems pretty common sense to me, but then I step outside this forum and obviously there is a whole different perspective and in fact contradictory information being presented. So I'm left wondering who has what agenda, how reliable all the research and polls and statistics etc actually are, and what to make of it all really.

An example - I've seen posts on here that the widely cited statistics about suicide attempts in young people who are trans or have gender dysphoria, are basically false and scaremongering parents into a medical pathway. Could anyone point me towards information about this?

I see the word ideology bandied about a lot online - 'trans ideology' obviously but also another 'T' ideology I won't post on here (hopefully that's clear!) So essentially there are two competing claims that the other side are antiscience, dogmatic, advancing a quasi-religious belief rather than material reality. As a non-scientist I feel at a disadvantage wading through all the literature as I can't really know if what I'm reading has much good science behind it.

An example - the pink brain/blue brain stuff. I don't feel I have a 'lady brain' and would certainly reject the terminology, but I believe it's the case that there are certain structural differences between male and female brains. Has this been debunked or is it irrelevant to the trans issue? And what's the evidence for the role of hormones in utero? It sounds potentially credible to me but I know gets short shrift on here because it sounds dangerously close to saying women can't do x y z or are 'naturally better' at doing all the low status boring stuff. Which I disagree with obviously but there is some evidence for certain strengths/ areas of interest on average isn't there? Possibly I'm dragging in a whole separate issue but it comes up in the trans discussion as the argument is presumably that trans people are just gnc and have bought into the idea that they're in the wrong body somehow. So the idea of having a gender identity is just sexism. I kind of get that but I'm not sure if explains the dysphoria aspect and things like brain scans showing similar activity in mtf trans and female subjects. I know the concept of being trans has moved away from dysphoria anyway, which leaves me even more perplexed.

I actually have far too many questions for an already overly long post, and a lot more on the political side of things (GRA reform, Keira Bell case etc) but if anyone feels inclined to respond I'd really appreciate it!

I think it is vitally important to use UK data. We know the treatment specifics here. We have clinician’s and clinic CEOs writing specifically about the situation here, in relation to treatment paths, outcomes etc.

We do also need to keep repeating that clinicians also advise that mental health often remains a significant issue during and after transition. They have also warned of children and teens giving ‘coached’ answers using keywords and talking about suicide to influence and manipulate diagnosis.

Just noticed another ‘suicide’ thread deleted. Some posters are determined to push that agenda and in doing so forging the link of children with gender dysphoria being the most vulnerable of all.

Research has shown that in the UK that the likelihood of suicide is no greater in that group.

Is it high? Yes. Should more be done? Absolutely!

Care needs to be tailored to the need of each patient in the care of a gender clinic or on a waiting list or as soon as they need if. Just like all other health issues that have mental health effects.

While it is unclear what the numbers are, it is also important that the rights of others are not compromised because of it. Including compromising female transitioners health through lack of adequate resources and research and centring the male transition needs as a default. It is very important that the needs of females are given equal priority.

Also it has been estimated that 30% of trans people are autistic, which carries a higher suicide rate in itself. How do you separate them out?

were 5.1 times more likely than nonreferred children to talk about suicide and 8.6 times more likely to self-harm/attempt suicide,

It isn't actually borne out in the completed suicide figures. There is no evidence that children and young people who claim to be trans do kill themselves more than other children and young people.

We are talking about the U.K. here. Suicide of children and young people is thankfully not that common. The main antecedents are bereavement (often, devastatingly, as a result of suicide itself) and mental health issues.

The Tavistock has said that suicide among their referrals is extremely rare. Awful though any suicide is, we can be thankful for that. I believe it was one in ten years, when we were talking about this in 2018.

Self harm and suicide ideation is higher than average amongst the trans community, as it is amongst other marginalised groups. All LGB, the disabled, and people with comorbid issues, etc. And especially autism.

The study by Stonewall said that of the respondents who claimed suicide attempts, half were disabled.

But as they didn't provide, or refused to provide, any further information, no real conclusion can be drawn. Despite what would look like an urgent need to do so.

Unless anyone knows if they have since clarified that statistic?

@Wondermule

Also it has been estimated that 30% of trans people are autistic, which carries a higher suicide rate in itself. How do you separate them out?

Can you point me to specific autism & trans research please? I'm very interested in this, thank you.

Here's a chunk from the Bell judgment

33. It is recorded in the GIDS Service Specification and the wider literature that a significant proportion of those presenting with GD have a diagnosis of Autistic Spectrum Disorder (ASD). The Service Specification says:

“There seems to be a higher prevalence of autistic spectrum disorder (ASD) conditions in clinically referred, gender dysphoric adolescents than in the general adolescent population. Holt, Skagerberg & Dunsford (2014) found that 13.3% of referrals to the service in 2012 mentioned comorbid ASD (although this is likely to be an underestimate). This compares with 9.4% in the Dutch service; whereas in the Finnish service, 26% of adolescents were diagnosed to be on the autism spectrum (Kaltiala-Heino et al. 2015).

34. The court asked for statistics on the number or proportion of young people referred by GIDS for PBs who had a diagnosis of ASD. Ms Morris said that such data was not available, although it would have been recorded on individual patient records. We therefore do not know the proportion of those who were found by GIDS to be Gillick competent who had ASD, or indeed a mental health diagnosis.

35. Again, we have found this lack of data analysis – and the apparent lack of investigation of this issue - surprising.

The persecution narrative is likely to be damaging to the mental health of already vulnerable children as well.

The widely repeated claims that trans people are suffering escalating amount of hate and violence (although this is not backed up by any figures other than the hate crime reporting which seems to be extremely questionable and subjective) create an atmosphere where they can perceive persecution at every turn.

The person I know, white, well-off family, female has said that they feel unsafe on the street, not because they are female but because they are trans. The difficulty is that I don't think any random stranger would have any inkling that this person is trans. They dress in a baggy, casual way with short hair but just look like a young girl wearing baggy clothes.

I think this person genuinely has this perception of their interaction of the world but when the trans 'supporters' constantly tell trans people that we all hate them and want them dead that is not surprising. Any glance on the street, or snippy interaction in the shop is going to be interpreted as being against them because they are trans.

It is most likely that any attention this person gets (I don't think there has been any actual incidents, just maybe the odd glance) attracts any attention through being obviously female, not their identity.

It occurred to me that if a non-hormone/surgery transwoman dressed exactly as I am dressed today (hair tied back, a bit of concealer, jumper, jeans, trainers), precisely zero people would be able to see that they identified as a woman.

There's an article in The Telegraph today which is a fairly balanced review of puberty blockers. It comes with a subsection about a mother and her trans son (ftm). In it she says that puberty blockers made her child feel suicidal, but that they also saved his life. I was taken aback that this young person was given yet more drugs to balance out the impact of the puberty blockers:

‘Alex told me he was suicidal, a feeling that was to last for several weeks,’ she says. When Alex repeated thoughts of self-harm to a counsellor at the Tavistock, Lisa was ‘horrified’. Alex was put on ‘suicide watch’ at school. ‘Eventually, we understood his low mood was due to the puberty blockers, so he was given a small dose of oestrogen that eliminated the feelings after a couple of months. No one is arguing that blockers are without risk, or that they have no side effects, but they were necessary for my son: they saved his life.’

www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/truth-parent-transitioning-teen/

No one is arguing that blockers are without risk, or that they have no side effects, but they were necessary for my son: they saved his life.’

The article gives no insight into how she thinks they saved her child’s life. The only information we are given is that pbs caused the child to be suicidal. What is the missing piece of information that could make sense of those two points?

I've got an anti-tiger rock I keep on my desk at all times. It's certainly saved my life.

[quote TheRabbitOfCaerbannog]There's an article in The Telegraph today which is a fairly balanced review of puberty blockers. It comes with a subsection about a mother and her trans son (ftm). In it she says that puberty blockers made her child feel suicidal, but that they also saved his life. I was taken aback that this young person was given yet more drugs to balance out the impact of the puberty blockers:

‘Alex told me he was suicidal, a feeling that was to last for several weeks,’ she says. When Alex repeated thoughts of self-harm to a counsellor at the Tavistock, Lisa was ‘horrified’. Alex was put on ‘suicide watch’ at school. ‘Eventually, we understood his low mood was due to the puberty blockers, so he was given a small dose of oestrogen that eliminated the feelings after a couple of months. No one is arguing that blockers are without risk, or that they have no side effects, but they were necessary for my son: they saved his life.’

www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/truth-parent-transitioning-teen/[/quote]
Interesting. When my medication made me suicidal the GP changed it to something else. Not prescribed me more drugs to counteract the drugs.

When my medication made me suicidal the GP changed it to something else. Not prescribed me more drugs to counteract the drugs.

Indeed. Plus this young person who had been put on puberty blockers had to be put on a hormone that regulates normal puberty in girls. I'm finding it all a bit mind boggling.

@gardenbird48

The persecution narrative is likely to be damaging to the mental health of already vulnerable children as well.

The widely repeated claims that trans people are suffering escalating amount of hate and violence (although this is not backed up by any figures other than the hate crime reporting which seems to be extremely questionable and subjective) create an atmosphere where they can perceive persecution at every turn.

The person I know, white, well-off family, female has said that they feel unsafe on the street, not because they are female but because they are trans. The difficulty is that I don't think any random stranger would have any inkling that this person is trans. They dress in a baggy, casual way with short hair but just look like a young girl wearing baggy clothes.

I think this person genuinely has this perception of their interaction of the world but when the trans 'supporters' constantly tell trans people that we all hate them and want them dead that is not surprising. Any glance on the street, or snippy interaction in the shop is going to be interpreted as being against them because they are trans.

It is most likely that any attention this person gets (I don't think there has been any actual incidents, just maybe the odd glance) attracts any attention through being obviously female, not their identity.

It occurred to me that if a non-hormone/surgery transwoman dressed exactly as I am dressed today (hair tied back, a bit of concealer, jumper, jeans, trainers), precisely zero people would be able to see that they identified as a woman.

DS2 looks like a girl from the back. He gets more comments when people think he's a girl. Think "oi oi love" and whistling, than he does when he turns around/speaks and they realise he's a boy with long hair/think he's trans. He has been called a transgender bitch at school though, usually after boys have made lewd comments in the toilets/told him he should be in the girls.

Disclaimer. He isn't trans, although he spent half his younger years in a "dress" (one of my old going out tops). He's a boy with long hair.

One of my DDs is in a group of girls who have a range of identifies.

There was some stuff last year and I told her she had to let me read her phone.

One of the things I remember was a forwarded thing about how on a certain date transphobes were going to attack trans kids and kill them.

Her friend said she was scared.

These are children who have nothing about them to ID them as trans and of course it's drivel anyway.

I think there is a lot of fucked up stuff circulating on various social media.

The keeness to use MH issues in children as a major argument to support a view- often lying about it- is massively awful and worrying.

@NiceGerbil

Saying it's a medical condition is generally seen as transphobic.

So that's interesting.

Of course many people have different views but I think that saying transwomen are not male is a fairly strong stance so I'm surprised to see the medical condition comment.

"Saying it's a medical condition is generally seen as transphobic."

Who told you that? I don't know any trans people who think that, and I know a lot of trans people.

@gardenbird48

The persecution narrative is likely to be damaging to the mental health of already vulnerable children as well.

The widely repeated claims that trans people are suffering escalating amount of hate and violence (although this is not backed up by any figures other than the hate crime reporting which seems to be extremely questionable and subjective) create an atmosphere where they can perceive persecution at every turn.

The person I know, white, well-off family, female has said that they feel unsafe on the street, not because they are female but because they are trans. The difficulty is that I don't think any random stranger would have any inkling that this person is trans. They dress in a baggy, casual way with short hair but just look like a young girl wearing baggy clothes.

I think this person genuinely has this perception of their interaction of the world but when the trans 'supporters' constantly tell trans people that we all hate them and want them dead that is not surprising. Any glance on the street, or snippy interaction in the shop is going to be interpreted as being against them because they are trans.

It is most likely that any attention this person gets (I don't think there has been any actual incidents, just maybe the odd glance) attracts any attention through being obviously female, not their identity.

It occurred to me that if a non-hormone/surgery transwoman dressed exactly as I am dressed today (hair tied back, a bit of concealer, jumper, jeans, trainers), precisely zero people would be able to see that they identified as a woman.

"The persecution narrative is likely to be damaging to the mental health of already vulnerable children as well."

The persecution itself is damaging to their mental health. This is from a 10 minute Google browse:

www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-news/trans-teenager-attacked-violently-school-2718414

"A trans teenager was left with boot marks on her head and a severe concussion after she was attacked by a girl while going to her school changing room."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47764844

"A transgender teenager has had his face cut during an attack police are treating as a hate crime."

metro.co.uk/2019/07/04/transgender-teenager-gang-raped-three-men-first-night-female-10112112/

"A transgender teenager was gang-raped by three men on her first night out as a female, police have been told."

www.lep.co.uk/news/crime/lancaster-girl-arrested-after-hate-crime-attack-transgender-teen-and-friends-williamson-park-3020492

"A 17-year-old girl has been arrested after a gang of around 15 teenagers attacked a transgender teen and her friends in Lancaster's Williamson Park."

www.gaytimes.co.uk/life/trans-person-walking-their-dog-pelted-with-stones-by-a-group-of-teens/

"The trans person was attacked by a group of eight teenagers, believed to have been aged between 13 and 14, who threw a bottle and stones at their head, one of the stones actually hit the person in the head. The individual has also been subjected to malicious messages."

www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/transgender-woman-speaks-out-after-19013288

"This same situation had happened with me before with my friends with a boy who just hit us all for absolutely no reason."

www.ardrossanherald.com/news/18167954.ardrossan-teen-todd-campbell-appears-court-accused-transgender-assault/

www.midlandszone.co.uk/news/teenager-charged-in-transgender-mcdonalds-attack/1599

"A teenager has been charged in connection with the brutal attack on a transgender woman in a McDonald’s restaurant."

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/ayrshire/brute-labels-transgender-victim-trans-20082139

"The tearaway admitted assaulting his 16-year-old victim by pushing the victim on the body and repeatedly punching them on the head."

www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/18632760.man-launched-attack-transgender-woman-southampton/

"The incident happened in Ludlow Road when the man abused the woman, specifically about her gender identity, before spitting in her face and punching her in the head several times."

Who told you that? I don't know any trans people who think that, and I know a lot of trans people.

There are plenty of trans people who think and have said that, so clearly you're not as much of an all knowing expert as you thought.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Who told you that? I don't know any trans people who think that, and I know a lot of trans people.

There are plenty of trans people who think and have said that, so clearly you're not as much of an all knowing expert as you thought.

Sure - there must be some people who have said it, but it's hardly a mainstream opinion. I mean I have heard GC people say that all trans men should be sterilised, but that's not the consensus here... is it?

Well you're out of the loop. We have been told many times that it's nothing to do with a medical condition. And it's transphobic to even say so.

We've also been vehement informed that gender dysphoria is completely unnecessary in order to be transgender.

Although, it's no surprise, that you can't keep up.

Well you're out of the loop. We have been told many times that it's nothing to do with a medical condition. And it's transphobic to even say so.

Exactly. Shizuku missed the memo. Like the people who thought "womxn" was inclusive.

@Datun

Well you're out of the loop. We have been told many times that it's nothing to do with a medical condition. And it's transphobic to even say so.

We've also been vehement informed that gender dysphoria is completely unnecessary in order to be transgender.

Although, it's no surprise, that you can't keep up.

"gender dysphoria is completely unnecessary in order to be transgender"

It is, but most trans people experience it. Do you understand the distinction between "most" and "all"?

Do you have any evidence that most trans people experience medical gender dysphoria?

Is gender dysphoria a mental illness?