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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Consent for women

332 replies

ArabellaScott · 19/03/2021 09:32

A reminder:

You don't owe anyone your attention.

You have no obligation to 'include' anyone in your 'dating pool'.

Your sexual preferences are yours and yours alone.

Nobody has the right to shame you for your sexual preferences.

Nobody has the right to question your sexual preferences.

When it comes to sex and sexual preferences, nobody has the right to demand your attention, your consideration or your attraction.

Not ever.

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 19/03/2021 15:01

Define your terms; we are talking about one to one situations. Not academia.

DaisiesandButtercups · 19/03/2021 15:02

We have had a perfect example of what young people are up against, being shamed and guilt tripped if they don’t analyse why they aren’t sexually attracted to a particular person, type or group. Being pushed, through social pressure to be kind and inclusive, into justifying their boundaries and their “No”.

If someone says no, just accept it that is all.

PurpleHoodie · 19/03/2021 15:03

#BeKind

#WimminEXPLAINYourNoIsItGoodEnoughForMeeeeee

TedMullins · 19/03/2021 15:05

Also please show me where I ever said no shouldn’t mean no, or said anyone should give in to pressure to have sex with someone they want, because that has literally... not happened. It’s actually baffling that some pretty surface level sociological analysis has caused such offence. Again, more telling about you than it is me, when in every post I’ve been polite, repeated that I agree with the OP and not resorted to personal attacks like ‘I don’t like your attitude’.

DaisiesandButtercups · 19/03/2021 15:06

This thread is about consent on a practical level not on the academic study of how our sexuality develops. It would be pushing boundaries to bring up the wider academic topic with someone who has just turned down your advances.

Thelnebriati · 19/03/2021 15:07

'I dont like your attitude' is not a personal attack, its a statement of how a person feels about your behaviour.

PurpleHoodie · 19/03/2021 15:08

Imagine that scenario.

A: I want to have sex with you

B: No, thanks.

A: Expain yourself. I demand it!

TedMullins · 19/03/2021 15:08

@Thelnebriati

Define your terms; we are talking about one to one situations. Not academia.
I’m talking about it in an abstract, general sense of sexual preferences. I’m not questioning sexuality or the fact that if you say no in a real world, one-to-one situation, that is absolute. Of course it is! I’m not sure how anyone could’ve interpreted otherwise from my posts but that isn’t what I meant. I thought (maybe mistakenly) that the comment ‘nobody has a right to question your preferences) in the OP was meant in a more general sense, not a specific scenario such as ‘let’s have sex’ ‘no’ ‘but tell me why not’. Of course that’s not acceptable!
nauticant · 19/03/2021 15:08

I'd also say that introducing hurdles into the mind of someone's inclination to say "no" is also a concern.

TedMullins · 19/03/2021 15:11

But there are hundreds of potential iterations of that scenario. Ultimately nobody is owed an explanation, but context is relevant.

Random bloke in pub: ‘why won’t you have sex with me?’ Unacceptable and coercive.

You, to person you’re on a date with: ‘I don’t want to sleep with anyone under 6ft’
Date person: ‘oh really, why’s that?’ Innocent conversation.

Thelnebriati · 19/03/2021 15:13

Or an attempt top persuade you to change your mind, which is not OK.

MissBarbary · 19/03/2021 15:14

@TedMullins

But there are hundreds of potential iterations of that scenario. Ultimately nobody is owed an explanation, but context is relevant.

Random bloke in pub: ‘why won’t you have sex with me?’ Unacceptable and coercive.

You, to person you’re on a date with: ‘I don’t want to sleep with anyone under 6ft’
Date person: ‘oh really, why’s that?’ Innocent conversation.

There's no difference.
MissBarbary · 19/03/2021 15:17

Again, more telling about you than it is me, when in every post I’ve been polite, repeated that I agree with the OP and not resorted to personal attacks like ‘I don’t like your attitude’

You might want to read back your posts. You say "I've been polite" - your posts have been hectoring and tone deaf.

Helleofabore · 19/03/2021 15:18

This thread is about consent on a practical level not on the academic study of how our sexuality develops.

Yes. And it also seems that the academic discussion about 'prejudice' will shape people's preferences in ways that they may not be comfortable with. It is about 'educating' people and challenging their comfort to allow some groups a wider access to sexual partners, is the way I read it. Framing it as 'prejudice' immediately shows negative connotation. A great deal of care needs to be taken around any of these discussions not to lower people's boundaries through anything that could be considered coercion either on the individual or a sex class or at a total society level.

It is highly relevant to consent for the individual.

PurpleHoodie · 19/03/2021 15:22

Yes.

DaisiesandButtercups · 19/03/2021 15:27

I think of the tea analogy

Person A “So you don’t want tea?”

Person B “No.”

Person A “ Well, have you considered why not? Is it actually that you are unreasonably prejudiced against plants which grow in China and India? Maybe it is because you were brought up in a water drinking household where you got the impression that tea is in some way immoral? You ought to give some serious consideration to where your rejection of tea comes from, it might be a sign that you are abusing your privilege in some way or that you have some issues you need to work through. ”

TedMullins · 19/03/2021 15:30

I disagree that there’s no difference. I think it’s fine to be curious about someone’s preference if you’re on a date with them, as it’s key to know these things about each other if any kind of relationship is to progress (or not).

There’s nothing I can do if you’re determined to find something offensive about anything I’ve said, that’s your prerogative, but the fact is I haven’t cast aspersions on anyone’s character. What is so threatening to you about someone who enjoys thinking critically about the world we live in? I don’t find your stance offensive or threatening, I think it’s a shame you’re so closed off to social theory as personally I find it fascinating (and this is the kind of conversation I frequently have in one of my all-female group chats, we all enjoy it and get stuck in) but again, your prerogative, I’m not going to try and force you to go and read about sexual politics if you’re not interested because we actually do agree on the central tenet that bodily autonomy is absolute, consent must be enthusiastically given and can be revoked at any time. I’ve never disagreed with that - but it is also true that our preferences aren’t formed in a vacuum.

Also, nice dismissal of common prejudices bi women face by people on this thread, apparently they’re valid assumptions to hold about us according to some, which is pretty at odds with a pro woman, feminist stance.

MissBarbary · 19/03/2021 15:33

I've never actually met anyone who has said the things you claim are said about bi- women. Maybe I just meet nicer people?

TedMullins · 19/03/2021 15:35

@DaisiesandButtercups

I think of the tea analogy

Person A “So you don’t want tea?”

Person B “No.”

Person A “ Well, have you considered why not? Is it actually that you are unreasonably prejudiced against plants which grow in China and India? Maybe it is because you were brought up in a water drinking household where you got the impression that tea is in some way immoral? You ought to give some serious consideration to where your rejection of tea comes from, it might be a sign that you are abusing your privilege in some way or that you have some issues you need to work through. ”

Personally I think if you’re discussing tea in an abstract sense and asking these questions that’s fine. It’s a valid question to ask. The person may be interested in talking further, they may say they have thought about it, understand it and still don’t want tea, or they might say they’re not interested in discussing it and want to leave. All of those are valid responses, and none of them should end with the person accepting tea if they don’t want to, and that should not be challenged to the point of coercion.

If you’re asking that while holding a cup of tea or trying to pour it into their mouth that is a completely different situation and would be unacceptable and abusive. If the person has drunk half the tea and decides they no longer want it, it would be inappropriate and coercive to question that at that moment.

What I don’t agree with is that there is NEVER a situation where it can be debated, I think in the right contexts it can.

TedMullins · 19/03/2021 15:36

@MissBarbary

I've never actually met anyone who has said the things you claim are said about bi- women. Maybe I just meet nicer people?
Well I’m glad to hear that, unfortunately those are all real world examples I’ve heard from men and women. Some were open to discussion, others weren’t, but I didn’t try and pressure any of them to sleep with me.
CousinKrispy · 19/03/2021 15:56

I'd find it uncomfortable and inappropriate in the extreme for anyone I was on a date with, or who was asking me for a date, to question why I wasn't willing to sleep with him/her. I would find it weird, tone-deaf, hectoring and also extremely unsexy to receive some kind of "But why? Are you sure about that? Don't you think you're missing out by not sleeping with short men??" interrogation. I can't ever see it being appropriate on a personal level.

Discussing it as a social trend, in theory, rather than on a personal level--of course it is possible to have those conversations. Discussion of how dark-skinned women are often sidelined (wasn't there an example of this on Live Island one time?) Is an example.

But trying to force that discussion to happen when people are talking about something different simply doesn't interest me.

CatChant · 19/03/2021 15:59

"I don't want to," should be sufficient. No one is owed an explanation as to why you don't want to have sex with them. It is infuriating that women are being asked to justify themselves.

Soontobe60 · 19/03/2021 16:01

@TedMullins

Nobody has the right to question your sexual preferences.

I don’t fully agree with this - people are free to query where your preferences may stem from or be curious about them. It’s not wrong to ask. Agree with everything else though. Ultimately even if your preference does include an element of prejudice it’s still your absolute right to have 100% autonomy over your body.

No, absolutely NO ONE has the right to question anyone’s sexual preferences. Do you believe that a lesbian saying she is only sexually attracted to females is prejudiced? because, gay people have fought for years to have their sexuality made lawful.
CousinKrispy · 19/03/2021 16:01

Love bloody Island, not Live Island.

TedMullins · 19/03/2021 16:02

@CousinKrispy

I'd find it uncomfortable and inappropriate in the extreme for anyone I was on a date with, or who was asking me for a date, to question why I wasn't willing to sleep with him/her. I would find it weird, tone-deaf, hectoring and also extremely unsexy to receive some kind of "But why? Are you sure about that? Don't you think you're missing out by not sleeping with short men??" interrogation. I can't ever see it being appropriate on a personal level.

Discussing it as a social trend, in theory, rather than on a personal level--of course it is possible to have those conversations. Discussion of how dark-skinned women are often sidelined (wasn't there an example of this on Live Island one time?) Is an example.

But trying to force that discussion to happen when people are talking about something different simply doesn't interest me.

I think it would be possible to discuss it “in theory” on a date but I completely agree it could tip over into being coercive if not done respectfully.

Genuine apologies to anyone who feels this was an inappropriate place to have this conversation, as I said, I have a vibrant and mentally stimulating all-female group chat where we often discuss things like this and all enjoy sharing our views, so I assumed this was a similar kind of space, especially as I wasn’t disagreeing, I was adding to the opening statement (or so I thought).