Consent for women

[ArabellaScott]

A reminder:

You don't owe anyone your attention.

You have no obligation to 'include' anyone in your 'dating pool'.

Your sexual preferences are yours and yours alone.

Nobody has the right to shame you for your sexual preferences.

Nobody has the right to question your sexual preferences.

When it comes to sex and sexual preferences, nobody has the right to demand your attention, your consideration or your attraction.

Not ever.

You can meet someone who 'ticks every box' of what you find attractive and still just not fancy them for whatever indefinable reason. If someone is demanding that you explain to them why you don't want to date them, it's sheer entitlement along the lines of 'but I'm a nice guy/girl!'. You don't have to have any particular reason - you just don't want to. Framing this as the person refusing being a bigot is very depressing.

did shaming of young women actually ever stop

God no, it's the one thing that is constant. Probably should be added to 'death and taxes'.

exactly! There are plenty of men that tick all my boxes on paper but do nothing for me when I meet them. Not dating someone because you dont fancy them is not being bigoted

I'm gobsmacked Errol had to spell that out so explicitly.

It's like last week how often on most women centred threads did we have to continually repeat "Yes NAMALT. We're discussing those who are". F's sake

And who called the Sexual Preference Police?

When it comes to our bodies and consent this sums it up -

You are not an employer, you are under no obligations to be 'inclusive'. No is a complete sentence.

Thank you notyourhandmaid

not being attracted to someone doesn't mean you are prejudiced against them

This, entirely.

You don't have to question the absence of attraction, you don't have to examine your responses. You are free, at all times, to not engage with someone on a sexual basis.

I will not haver on this, not even slightly.

I don't even brush my daughter's hair without her full consent, ffs. I don't ask her why she doesn't want her hair brushed. I don't try to coerce or manipulate her into brushing her hair. I don't suggest that her refusal to brush her hair makes her in some way a bad person or is a morally bad choice.

Arabella Scott

Totally, no is the default. Most people when they walk into a crowded room wouldn't look around and think mmm yes, do all of them. It's generally no to the majority. After that it may be more instinct than a examination of preferences and prejudice. No-one has to talk themselves into sleeping with someone. Anyone that tries to talk someone into sleeping with them deserves a loud ' fuck off' shouted right down their earhole.

There's something about active and passive voice, I think.

Attraction is active, it's not the absence of distaste, the absence of refusal. It's enthusiastic, active consent.

We have the right to be active in our attraction and choices.

Discussions like this make me think I'm living in a parallel universe.
Thank you for raising the Issue ArabellaScott If just one woman reads this and feels enabled to say no to someone guilt tripping her into an unwanted relationship, then it's worth it.

Mumsnet is such an important site for empowering women.

@Beamur

I think I get your point TedMullins and to some extent, we should examine our prejudices if we have them. Because it may be preventing us from making meaningful connections and it may make us less pleasant to be around. However, people who have the emotional maturity to do that are not really where the problems lie. I think the extract from the Harvard article was interesting. The phenomena of people actually thinking and behaving in a more conservative (small c) way than they say is very well known with voting patterns for example. I think with dating this is the realm of the white lie. You tend not to say, I won't date you because you are unattractive to me, or are out of work, or have had a vasectomy and I want kids, or any other range of reasons that might be hurtful for the person hearing it - you say something bland. This is manners and respect. You may not wish to pursue intimacy but you have the grace to let people down kindly. Has this become the wrong thing to do? I am genuinely curious.

I agree with all of this, and personally no I don’t think it’s wrong, I think often the easiest way to tell someone you don’t want to date them is a simple ‘sorry, it’s not working for me’ or if you’re on a dating app for example just screening out people with the characteristics you don’t want.

I also agree that people with the self awareness to question their own preferences aren’t the problem, and that any questioning that falls outside the realms of a theoretical/philosophical discuss is very likely to be coercive and problematic. So I don’t actually disagree with the OP at all, I was just expanding on one point to say there are actually contexts in which questioning preferences aren’t necessarily abusive.

Are there any groups or campaigns that are actively promoting consent, and a thorough knowledge of it?

I tried googling 'informed consent' but just got healthcare stuff. Some of the big organisations surely must do work on this?

Also it depends on the context - discussing here, online, is very different to saying ‘no’ if someone tries to kiss you, for example, and you don’t want them to, or someone questioning you directly after you’ve turned them down. Those are not the situations to start questioning, philosophically or otherwise. I raised my point more as an addition to the original point, largely because as a bi woman I personally do think there are prejudices that inform people’s preferences not to date me. That’s not to say I think they should change their minds - I don’t, and I’d never try and convince anyone otherwise.

But would you really want to be in a relationship with or even just have a hook up someone who had to (for want of a better phrase) "train" themselves into finding you attractive?

@Bordois

But would you really want to be in a relationship with or even just have a hook up someone who had to (for want of a better phrase) "train" themselves into finding you attractive?

Don’t know if that’s directed at me but no, of course not, which is why I keep repeating that I don’t think any amount of navel-gazing about your preferences should result in changing your mind.

I just think it’s something you can interrogate yourself about in the same way as you might ask yourself (and these are examples I’ve plucked out of the air) why you wouldn’t get married in a black trouser suit, why you feel uncomfortable at non-white people saying you might have racist tendencies, why you think smoking weed is bad but drugs and booze are fine. I’m not suggesting anyone here thinks those things, I’m just saying that preferences often have other sociological contexts.

Drugs and booze? I meant fags and booze. Anyway. You get the point.

as a bi woman I personally do think there are prejudices that inform people’s preferences not to date me

What do you think those prejudices are and how do the differ from any other prejudices people may have when it comes to dating preferences?

Don’t know if that’s directed at me but no

No, your post wasn't there but thank you for your response

I dont think a bit of self examination about what may drive our preferences is a bad thing, but knowing that its because of X doesn't change how you feel about it

Consent ArabellaScott

A reminder

You don't owe anyone your attention.

You have no obligation to 'include' anyone in your 'dating pool'.

Your sexual preferences are yours and yours alone.

Nobody has the right to shame you for your sexual preferences.

Nobody has the right to question your sexual preferences.

When it comes to sex and sexual preferences, nobody has the right to demand your attention, your consideration or your attraction.

Not ever.

@TedMullins

Nobody has the right to question your sexual preferences.

I don’t fully agree with this - people are free to query where your preferences may stem from or be curious about them. It’s not wrong to ask. Agree with everything else though. Ultimately even if your preference does include an element of prejudice it’s still your absolute right to have 100% autonomy over your body.

Er no, as long as one's preferences are legal it is no one else's business

Although this one is more questionable

Nobody has the right to shame you for your sexual preferences

Obviously if one's sexual preferences are illegal then "shaming" is fair game.

Even if not actually illegal I think an older woman making a play for a teenager is extremely questionable as is any woman who pays for sex.

I'm not sure that I agree. With the Alabama shootings having happened so recently, I think there is definitely an argument for examining the assumptions and prejudices behind sexual attraction or lack of it.

Why? Can you elaborate why that spree shooting is relevant? Not following.

Nobody has the right to shame you for your sexual preferences

Obviously if one's sexual preferences are illegal then "shaming" is fair game.

Yes, very good point, MissBarbary. I had in mind more people's preferences to not be attracted to someone than their positive attractions. But haven't had much sleep and am struggling with coherent speech.

Thanks Arabella

It's beyond depressing that this still needs to be spelled out.

Instead of sexual preference (because it's not a preference as this word implies it's a choice in terms of sexuality) do you think the statements (at least the first one) should say "sexual orientation".

Let's be explicitly clear about it.

You don't owe anyone your attention.

This also applies to non-sexual attention.

Take this FWR forum.

Proven shit stirring women hating (insert rooooood word 's) can be ignored by adding them to a 'skip post/poster list. You clock their names and the sexist/racist/homophobic/illogical guff they post, and you skip over them.

You are not obliged to give them attention.

Would also like to add that consent can be revoked at any time. ‘Stealthing’ is rape.

Good call re orientation, Waronwomen.