Consent for women

[ArabellaScott]

A reminder:

You don't owe anyone your attention.

You have no obligation to 'include' anyone in your 'dating pool'.

Your sexual preferences are yours and yours alone.

Nobody has the right to shame you for your sexual preferences.

Nobody has the right to question your sexual preferences.

When it comes to sex and sexual preferences, nobody has the right to demand your attention, your consideration or your attraction.

Not ever.

@TedMullins

I disagree that there’s no difference. I think it’s fine to be curious about someone’s preference if you’re on a date with them, as it’s key to know these things about each other if any kind of relationship is to progress (or not).

There’s nothing I can do if you’re determined to find something offensive about anything I’ve said, that’s your prerogative, but the fact is I haven’t cast aspersions on anyone’s character. What is so threatening to you about someone who enjoys thinking critically about the world we live in? I don’t find your stance offensive or threatening, I think it’s a shame you’re so closed off to social theory as personally I find it fascinating (and this is the kind of conversation I frequently have in one of my all-female group chats, we all enjoy it and get stuck in) but again, your prerogative, I’m not going to try and force you to go and read about sexual politics if you’re not interested because we actually do agree on the central tenet that bodily autonomy is absolute, consent must be enthusiastically given and can be revoked at any time. I’ve never disagreed with that - but it is also true that our preferences aren’t formed in a vacuum.

Also, nice dismissal of common prejudices bi women face by people on this thread, apparently they’re valid assumptions to hold about us according to some, which is pretty at odds with a pro woman, feminist stance.

Do you know what, I’ve never ever been on a date with someone who is a member of a group that I would not find sexually attractive - ie female. It would be very odd for me to actually go on a date with a man and ask them if their sexual preferences include women.

Ted, this thread is about consent, not sexual orientation or preference.

So the context is discussion of relationships.

I find it an odd idea to question someone's preferences, though. If someone didn't want to have sex with me because of my sexuality, appearance, skin colour, nationality, disability etc I would just move on, it would never cross my mind to discuss the reasons why with them or suggest they should think about why they don't want to sleep with me. Again, 'no' is the default when it comes to consent. Failing to find someone attractive is not prejudice in the sense of unfairness.

You say it's worth examining these things - I'm not sure why or it in what way it's beneficial. To whom and in what way is it worth it?

If you want to discuss attitudes and prejudice towards bi women maybe start another thread.

Crossposted with your apology there - I have no objection in theory to discussing these things but it's in danger of derailing this particular thread. I wanted to make a post that spelled out very clearly with no ifs or buts the absolute sacrosanct nature of consent.

Perhaps there is a time a place for abstract and impersonal discussion on this topic but a thread on consent is, it seems, inappropriate to many other posters.

Consent needs no qualifications and that is the problem with you trying to turn this thread to asking why some might exclude any particular groups of people. It doesn’t matter. No one ever needs to explain no. To ask for an explanation is a push against a boundary.

Perhaps you would get a different response, Ted, if you started your own thread on the origins and politics of sexual rejection of bisexuals by homosexuals and heterosexuals, if that is the discussion that you really want.

I would never find it appropriate for a potential sex partner on a date (or run-up thereto) to "discuss" with me why my sexual preferences didn't include them. I think even a supposedly "theoretical" discussion would feel creepy and uncomfortable and very bad manners; it would force me into the position of either shutting down the conversation abruptly, or having to say something they might take as a hurtful personal rejection, and we all know what sometimes happens when some men feel personally rejected by a woman. It's an issue of both courtesy and safety on my part to avoid having to go into those details.

Obviously I can't speak to the experience of women dating women but I think it's ludicrous to ignore the possibility that these "theoretical" discussions could result in angry, rejected men taking out their frustrations on women for those of us who date men.

@Beamur

I think I get your point TedMullins and to some extent, we should examine our prejudices if we have them. Because it may be preventing us from making meaningful connections and it may make us less pleasant to be around. However, people who have the emotional maturity to do that are not really where the problems lie. I think the extract from the Harvard article was interesting. The phenomena of people actually thinking and behaving in a more conservative (small c) way than they say is very well known with voting patterns for example. I think with dating this is the realm of the white lie. You tend not to say, I won't date you because you are unattractive to me, or are out of work, or have had a vasectomy and I want kids, or any other range of reasons that might be hurtful for the person hearing it - you say something bland. This is manners and respect. You may not wish to pursue intimacy but you have the grace to let people down kindly. Has this become the wrong thing to do? I am genuinely curious.

Have you ever been in a position where you have told someone why you wont date them? Even something bland? Because I don't know anyone who has. If someone asked me for a date and I wasn’t interested, a simple no thanks would be enough.

If the only thing I know about someone is their sexuality, the chances are that I am going to think them boring and not really care what they think of me.

And on the whole, I have never much cared to associate with people who are wondering all the time whether they are going to be able to have sex with me, and if not, why not. That sort of preoccupation is boring too.

When did the word "no" stop

Actually I know when that probably happened. There was a loathsome little phrase going around in the sixties, "If a lady says 'no' she means 'maybe'; if she says 'maybe' she means 'yes'; if she says 'yes' she ain't no lady." The first bit is where the error lies.

But I’ll say it louder for people at the back: theoretical analysis of ones preferences doesn’t mean you have to have sex with anyone you don’t want to

I'm not all the way through the thread yet, but I think this is a good topic for a different thread.
I am of course assuming you mean the discourse should be on an anonymous forum like this one, not a discourse between adults in a situation likely to need one adult to say no.

@Beamur or is this what you meant by bland?

Ted has queried the tea analogy and basically is suggesting that if one refuses a cup of tea without having tried it, then that's unreasonable.

I don't find any woman sexually attractive and there are many, many, physical characteristics of men which I don't find attractive. I find certain regional accents very unattractive. This might all be down to snobbish, culturally imposed attitudes but hey ho, so what. I'm considering who I might want to have sex with. I'm not interviewing them for a job.

@TedMullins

But there are hundreds of potential iterations of that scenario. Ultimately nobody is owed an explanation, but context is relevant.

Random bloke in pub: ‘why won’t you have sex with me?’ Unacceptable and coercive.

You, to person you’re on a date with: ‘I don’t want to sleep with anyone under 6ft’
Date person: ‘oh really, why’s that?’ Innocent conversation.

Ah, no. That's not an innocent conversation. That's literally questioning a no.

We seem to be getting perilously near that awful modern phrase 'gatekeeping your vagina' and the other awful reminder to lesbians that they should 'learn to cope' with sex against their choice and preferences as a social duty.

So sex in that context for a woman is not about her pleasure. It's not even about her instincts, her choice, her desires, her feelings. She has a social duty to use her body for the benefit and wellbeing of someone else and the most she can hope for in this exchange is that they expect her to 'learn to cope'.

Put that on the relationships board and they will tell you to run like hell and seek counselling.

No, women do not have a social duty to provide access to their bodies to others to correct perceived inequalities - or a social duty to overcome things like their choice, feelings, orientation. Any more than they had a duty to provide sex in the marital bed. Women do not have lesser rights and sex isn't something they owe others to endure whether enjoyed or not.

Someone who asks about my boundaries, and then in effect says "now let me try and talk you into doing something you've just said no to' is not ever someone I could fancy. Never mind trust enough to have sex with.

There are two possible responses to "Why?" as a reply to "No."

One is "Because" and the other is "Why not?"

The first is appropriate when someone questions why you don't want to have sex with them. Either that or the use of a large fish.

Soon tobe60
Yes, by bland I mean no, but politely
Although I have explicitly told someone why I wouldn't be going out with them - it was something quite throwaway like 'dont wear your hair up' when we meet and it made me feel really uncomfortable. I was much younger and whilst I wasn't even aware of the concept of red flags, it felt instinctively wrong. I rang him (before texting existed!) And said I wouldn't be meeting him and that comment had made me uncomfortable. He was really stunned, but weirdly polite and thanked me for letting him know.
Ted I think you're getting a slightly hard time on this thread but think your point is one worth a seperate discussion.

In answer to your question, yes I have discussed with people why I didn’t want to date/sleep with them. I am the kind of person who enjoys deep philosophical chats and I’m attracted to similar people so if the conversation on a date descended into that I wouldn’t find it threatening or inappropriate.

One such situation was where a man asked outright where my red lines were in regards to someone I wouldn’t sleep with. One of mine was landlords (yes, really). Turned out this man was himself a landlord due to a divorce and still owning the marital home but both parties moved out and rented it out. He asked why I said that and he was quite affronted. I said because I’m a committed socialist and I don’t believe property should be for profit. We had a very lively debate in which he said he felt unfairly maligned because he hadn’t chosen to be a landlord, which I could see his point on, and then I said I still didn’t want to sleep with him and off he went home.

Another was on a date with a woman who said she’d never date a journalist. I am a journalist. I asked why she felt that way and she cited tabloids, the sun, bigotry etc. As it happens I have never worked for the sun or a tabloid, I am a socialist (as mentioned), a feminist, anti-racist, as was she. She still wasn’t interested, which was fine, but she said I’d changed her opinion of journalists as I wasn’t was she thought they’d be like. We went out separate ways and didn’t speak again. I don’t think either of those situations are in any way coercive or unacceptable.

I’ve also had men, upon finding out I was bi, as if I’d ever had a threesome with a woman and man, filmed myself with a woman, would I be interested in doing those things for him. I found this fetishising and misogynist and told him so, we apologised, went our separate ways.

I also prefer to date bisexual men if I am going to date men, or at least men who are open minded about sexuality possibly being fluid, not because I find it a turn on but simply because in my experience I tend to have far more in common with them and view the world similarly, than I do with people who are wholly straight.

I’ll inevitably be asked now if I think people should sleep with trans women/men and the answer is no I don’t, unless they want to of course.

*he apologised, not we

I’d changed her opinion of journalists

Can you really not see the separation between prejudice and sexual consent, here, Ted?

Fine to try to convince someone that there's nothing wrong with bisexuals, or landlords or journalists, if you feel it important.

Consent is a different matter entirely. It's not something to be debated or persuaded or questioned.

@TedMullins

I’ve also had men, upon finding out I was bi, as if I’d ever had a threesome with a woman and man, filmed myself with a woman, would I be interested in doing those things for him. I found this fetishising and misogynist and told him so, we apologised, went our separate ways.

I also prefer to date bisexual men if I am going to date men, or at least men who are open minded about sexuality possibly being fluid, not because I find it a turn on but simply because in my experience I tend to have far more in common with them and view the world similarly, than I do with people who are wholly straight.

I’ll inevitably be asked now if I think people should sleep with trans women/men and the answer is no I don’t, unless they want to of course.

Sorry if I've misread your posts but are you saying you have a preference for bisexual men (if with a man), but bisexual women are discriminated against in terms of dating and it's wrong for people to have a preference which means they don't want to sleep with a bisexual? FWIW I don't want to sleep with a bisexual. That's my choice and I'm not discriminating any more than I don't want to sleep with someone shorter than me or I don't find light hair attractive or lazy arses (aka my ex) or lots of other factors be that physical or personality traits.

@ArabellaScott

I’d changed her opinion of journalists

Can you really not see the separation between prejudice and sexual consent, here, Ted?

Fine to try to convince someone that there's nothing wrong with bisexuals, or landlords or journalists, if you feel it important.

Consent is a different matter entirely. It's not something to be debated or persuaded or questioned.

That’s literally what I’ve been saying all along? Not wanting to sleep with landlords, bisexuals or journalists are preferences. You said “nobody has the right to question your preferences”, I disagreed, and I have just provided examples of times where preferences were questioned and nothing bad happened. After the questioning I STILL didn’t consent to sleeping with a landlord, and the woman STILL didn’t consent to sleeping with a journalist (not that I asked her to).

But these scenarios are what I had in mind all along, because to me that is what’s meant by questioning preferences. If you are LITERALLY naked in bed with someone and they say ‘actually no’ then of course that shouldn’t be questioned, or if you’re asked ‘will you have sex with me’ and the answer is no, again, no questioning. But neither of those situations are questioning preferences.

Okay, well firstly I don’t exclusively date bisexual men and I wouldn’t NOT date straight men, I’m merely saying that I have found bi men more attuned to my worldview. Stating ‘I prefer sex with bi over straight men’ is a preference, but yes, it is because I hold some prejudices about straight men such as, they are more likely to be sexist, they’re less inclined to question traditional gender roles, they’ve probably emotionally harmed a woman at some point without realising. I know these things don’t apply to all straight men (and they could apply to bi men too).

Straight men are the ‘default’ in society though so there are no long-running societal prejudices against them in the same way there are against bisexual people, so I do think the power/status of different sexualities is relevant, and why it is slightly different when it comes to excluding bi people from your dating pool.

But I don’t think about these things on a daily basis, I admit I have prejudices when questioned, but ultimately feel the same about who I will and won’t sleep with.

Even if the person in front of you is of your preferred orientation, political persuasion or whatever and you fancy the pants off them - you still have the right to say no.

Why do some people still not get that?

@CongealedCrags

Even if the person in front of you is of your preferred orientation, political persuasion or whatever and you fancy the pants off them - you still have the right to say no.

Why do some people still not get that?

I agree and I haven’t seen anyone on this thread who doesn’t.

But @TedMullins you still don't seem to be grasping this is a thread about consent. Questioning someone's choice to consent could be considered coercive. You may not have been in the position of "but why won't you sleep with me?!" coercive questions but I have and it's absolutely awful and in my case absolutely was coercive (I was a young teenager and highly impressionable not that really makes a big difference but still).

And no sorry but I disagree it's a power / status issue to exclude bisexuals from my dating pool nor do I think it's any different to excluding any other group of people.