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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Consent for women

332 replies

ArabellaScott · 19/03/2021 09:32

A reminder:

You don't owe anyone your attention.

You have no obligation to 'include' anyone in your 'dating pool'.

Your sexual preferences are yours and yours alone.

Nobody has the right to shame you for your sexual preferences.

Nobody has the right to question your sexual preferences.

When it comes to sex and sexual preferences, nobody has the right to demand your attention, your consideration or your attraction.

Not ever.

OP posts:
TheBuffster · 21/03/2021 12:59

When I was younger and in the dating game, black men would tell me I wasn't worth considering as a sexual partner because I was athletic with small boobs and a flat bum.

Sure it was rude (I mean, I wasn't actually interested in them either, but they still felt the need to point it out.)

Did I question their preferences? Did I try to change their minds? No, why would I want a sexual relationship with someone who didn't fancy me?

I still consider it a little mean and unnecessary, but wouldn't try and coerce another opinion out of them. (Plus my fragile ego couldn't take it.)

Thankfully different people fancy different things and I married a man who requires zero squats from me.

I do notice women habitually often understand the word no...

PigeonPants · 21/03/2021 15:12

I’ve seen threads on MN about self-imposed sexual, dating, and romantic preferences (usually on Relationships, Chat, or AIBU). I’m not sure how far anecdotal answers gathered online on a completely open forum will go. Researchers who explore and write about these questions are typically doing so much more systematically. Friends who talk about them in a group of friends do so voluntarily and consensually, as would people who reply to such a post on a forum.

I also don’t think this is a specifically feminist topic, unless there’s a particular feminist slant to the question(s) asked. If there are important prejudices that need to be examined and dealt with, they will go beyond one person not wanting to have a sexual and/or romantic relationship with another.

If I say “this dude Gareth on Tinder looks excellent, but I never date Welsh people because I don’t speak Welsh and wouldn’t be able to talk to him” and someone points out that most Welsh people speak native or at least fluent English, then result! I have information I was missing and now I can date Welsh people.

If my best friend says “I’m only open to dating blond men with light-coloured eyes who are at least 6’2” and between the ages of 28 and 32, are vegan, love cats, net over £100 pa, have a PhD, are circumcised, have an EU passport, vote SNP, and live within a 10km radius of my house” and then frequently complains that she wants a partner and can’t find one, then I’m likely tempted to suggest she consider relaxing her requirements in one or two areas - not because her wrongthink needs corrected, but because more realistic expectations might put her on a better road to achieving her goals and finding happiness.

I also think there’s often a strong and genuine reaction in these types of discussions from people in happy relationships with people who are “not their type” - they would have missed out on a great thing if they’d adhered to rigid rules and they don’t want someone else to miss out. That can be helpful in context, but can easily cross a line too. All of these are individual, personal concerns. The person benefitting IS the person examining their own rules, not someone else questioning the rulemaker.

TedMullins: Also LOL at the “this is what young women are up against”... I am, literally, a young woman, I have read these boards for a few years now and posted on them before. I don’t know your age, but given that you’ve said you’re working as a professional journalist I think it’s fair to assume that you are at least 18 and more likely early-to-mid 20s. The “young” people most impacted by the erosion of consent or lack of clarity around it are often a decade or so younger: the young teen victims of the UK grooming gangs who believed that giving someone free takeout means you owe them sex, the traumatised 13 year old who was having “consensual” sex with 20 firefighters in France, trusting children who become trafficked children, and so on and on. Your “LOL” in response is not the most socialist and feminist thing I have seen today, nor the best display of critical thinking.

TedMullins: I find this a really interesting portrait of the demographic on this board… What is the demographic? Does anyone know? MumsNet don’t have my demographic info, except for what my IP address (if I’m not using a VPN) tells them. Anyone could post here, and probably does. The MumsNet Hive Mind and FWR Hive Mind arguments are pointless, in my view.

…and I’m actually in my other group chat talking about and disseminating this very discussion. Given the history of this board - which you’ll know as you’ve been on it for a few years - this does come across as a bit creepy. You’re not willing to start a new thread to ask your question, as many people asked you to do rather than derailing the existing one, but you are willing to go away to another private forum to launch a one-sided critique?

TedMullins: I have an idea of why my view is in the minority and I think it’s because as much as a certain cohort on here crows about young women and wanting to protect them, they actually largely view them with utter contempt …. Again, you are misunderstanding what people mean by “young”. And your view was not in necessarily in the minority, it was just irrelevant to the thread. …. and are very resistant to the evolution of societal norms and don’t actually want to engage in any kind of meaningful feminist activism or conversation. Many people here are parents, many people here have worked with young people day in and day out for decades. Many people here understand the ins and outs of safeguarding, and you might too if you’d listen. Many people here have been involved in feminist and other progressive activism for decades. Overall, I don't think they are the ones being contemptuous on this thread.

ChattyLion · 21/03/2021 15:46

Bunting Flowers
There is never a 'but' in response to 'no' in a consent situation, in any context.
Exactly.

JohannaC · 21/03/2021 17:09

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bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 21/03/2021 17:15

But then there's a long colonial history of men being happy to be in sexual relationships with women they would never marry. The modern version of this is the aid worker scandal.

Yes. See also: prostituted women, "side chicks" and other mistress variants, the rape of enslaved black women in the Antebellum South to make them pregnant with more slaves, harems... There are plenty of men who will shag women they'd never give a job to and would bar their own children from playing with the woman's children.

Conversely, one of the thought-terminating cliches used by slavery advocates to undermine white emancipationists was along the lines of "you say you want black equality, but would you want your daughter to marry one?" ignoring the fact that no one should have to marry anyone they don't want to and forced marriage is a bad thing in itself.

There's plenty of men out there who chase transwomen for affairs, I'd use the slang term for those men but it includes a transphobic slur. Few, if any, of those men would consider an overt or committed relationship with a transwoman. There are plenty of white people of both sexes who chase black people, whether through exoticising black women or believing the size myth about black men, but would not openly date a black person.

Nina Simone asserted that equality does not mean shagging someone, nor even being friends with them, in her song Mississippi Goddamn when she sang "you don't have to live next to me, just give me my equality". Simone was correct. Being willing to shag someone doesn't get them a house nor a job nor a place in an educational establishment. It doesn't protect them from police brutality. It doesn't make a woman less likely to die in childbirth. Shagging someone doesn't say anything about willingness to accept them as a friend nor in wider society. All shagging someone means is that you want to obtain sexual pleasure, it doesn't prove anything about how you feel about the other person.

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 21/03/2021 17:25

@JohannaC

I may get some flack for this but I sometimes struggle with all the 'rules' around consent.

'No means no' etc is a no brainer but other situations seem less clear to me. For example, I dated a guy a couple of years back. I'd drive to meet him and he'd always jump on the train as he lived nearby. Hence, I couldn't drink but he'd have a couple of pints.

After a while of getting to know each other we went back to his and had 'consensual' sex. It was great and we only stopped seeing each other as he ended up moving for a really good job offer. But in the eyes of many (and I believe the law too) I sexually assaulted him as people can't give consent after drinking and I was sober whilst he'd had a few drinks. Confused

It would depend on how drunk he was. If he was slurring his speech, staggering, then I would argue that it wasn't consensual because he has to have a clear enough head to understand what he is doing and the potential consequences (STIs, pregnancy). A "couple of pints" is unlikely to get him so drunk that he won't have capacity to consent.
MissBarbary · 21/03/2021 17:28

If I say “this dude Gareth on Tinder looks excellent, but I never date Welsh people because I don’t speak Welsh and wouldn’t be able to talk to him” and someone points out that most Welsh people speak native or at least fluent English, then result! I have information I was missing and now I can date Welsh people

If anyone actually said that I'd think they were thick beyond redemption and Welsh Gareth has had a lucky escape.

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 21/03/2021 17:29

No, why would I want a sexual relationship with someone who didn't fancy me?

This. We have words for people who like having sex with people who don't actually want the sex. Words like rapist, sexual assailant, abuser, narcissist, psychopath, and sociopath.

JohannaC · 21/03/2021 17:29

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JohannaC · 21/03/2021 17:42

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bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 21/03/2021 17:48

@JohannaC

Actually, I've googled it and 'incapacitated' is the key term, which obviously depends on bodyweight and what you've eaten. But three pints could definitely make some men tipsy.
A fairly safe rule is: if you are in doubt as to capacity, take it as a no.
ArabellaScott · 21/03/2021 18:16

Nina Simone asserted that equality does not mean shagging someone, nor even being friends with them, in her song Mississippi Goddamn when she sang "you don't have to live next to me, just give me my equality". Simone was correct. Being willing to shag someone doesn't get them a house nor a job nor a place in an educational establishment. It doesn't protect them from police brutality. It doesn't make a woman less likely to die in childbirth. Shagging someone doesn't say anything about willingness to accept them as a friend nor in wider society. All shagging someone means is that you want to obtain sexual pleasure, it doesn't prove anything about how you feel about the other person.

Great points, thank you.

OP posts:
allmywhat · 21/03/2021 22:24

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allmywhat · 21/03/2021 22:36

Oh, I see the poster says they're female. Still creepy as hell, honestly. I don't see why someone who claims they agree with the OP would argue with it for twelve pages. Anyway I'm going to continue never having sex with people I'm not attracted to, and accepting my own sexual desires as valid. I recognise my tremendous privilege in being able to say that; I hope one day all women will be able to do the same.

JohannaC · 21/03/2021 22:41

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ArabellaScott · 21/03/2021 22:46

I've said upthread, Johanna, that I had in mind someome's preferences to not sleep with people, but I phrased it poorly.

Then again, I don't think a paedophile or rapist should be 'questioned', I think they should be dealt with by the law.

OP posts:
allmywhat · 21/03/2021 22:54

IMO the context makes it pretty clear the focus of the OP is about the right to say no and to be "exclusionary." It's a no means no post, not a yes means yes post.

But yes, harmful paraphilias like that (which are very rare in women) should be questioned and shamed.

PrawnofthePatriarchy · 21/03/2021 23:03

The patience of some of the FWR regulars never fails to impress me.

JohannaC · 21/03/2021 23:03

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ArabellaScott · 21/03/2021 23:06

You don't ever need to explain your 'no'.

'No' is enough. No justification, explanation or qualification needed.

OP posts:
PurpleHoodie · 22/03/2021 14:57

Exactly that.

MissBarbary · 22/03/2021 15:24

What did JohannaC say to merit so many deletions?

ArabellaScott · 22/03/2021 15:30

I am thinking that perhaps JohannaC has been removed altogether, but I'm not sure.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 22/03/2021 15:44

@ArabellaScott

I am thinking that perhaps JohannaC has been removed altogether, but I'm not sure.
Afaik if all of someone's posts are deleted it's because they've deregged and specifically asked MNHQ to delete their posts. Sometime it happens if a poster has been outed or doxxed somehow. There's quite a lot of old FWR threads which are barely there any more following withdrawal by various posters eg dittany and buffy, plus quite a lot post-jeffreygate.
ErrolTheDragon · 22/03/2021 15:45

Although in that case of course the deletion message would say it was by request not for breaking guidelines so presumably not the case here.

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