Consent for women

[ArabellaScott]

A reminder:

You don't owe anyone your attention.

You have no obligation to 'include' anyone in your 'dating pool'.

Your sexual preferences are yours and yours alone.

Nobody has the right to shame you for your sexual preferences.

Nobody has the right to question your sexual preferences.

When it comes to sex and sexual preferences, nobody has the right to demand your attention, your consideration or your attraction.

Not ever.

We all agree that no subject should be banned from being discussed amongst friends, theoretically. Does that cover it?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No, I don’t believe you have an inalienable right not to be asked a question. I do think everyone has an inalienable right to decide who they’ll have sex with. But discussing it is not the same as pressuring someone to change their mind.

In many contexts, yes it would be. It's coercive if the person being rejected asks you. It's loaded.

In some contexts it absolutely would, yes. But equally in other contexts, it isn’t

But that’s exactly my point - that some preferences are rooted in bigotry and discussing that is not coercive.

Yes it can be. Who is deciding what is "bigotry", exactly? I think we are mostly (not you, other pp) thinking about not wanting to have sex with a male if we are a lesbian, or a female if we are straight. Many people think that is "bigotry" if that person claims the gender identity of the opposite sex.

People who wear glasses,men with long hair or a particular sex?. Is sex based attraction bigoted Ted?

It’s not supposed to help the black man get to sleep with you. But
yes, black men are totally within their rights to wonder why they are excluded from some people’s dating pool for being black, and white women can wonder why their friend says they won’t sleep with black men. People questioning it doesn’t mean they think black men have a right to sleep with anyone they want and claiming it does is just misunderstanding the whole concept of the theoretical

Black men can wonder in their own heads about why anyone wont sleep with them, that's their prerogative and I've no part in that.

If women of my acquaintance wonder in front of me why I wont sleep with someone I would find that rapey, if they did it behind my back I'd call it gossip.

If a theoretical discussion on such matters had to be done I think there are better places than here.

Is sex based sexual preference rooted in bigotry Ted?

Good grief @TedMullins give it a rest. Do you think everyone on this thread / board is of a certain age? I'm young, do my views not count because they don't match up with your experiences of being a young women. Even if someone's views are bigoted, what do you think you'll achieve by questioning that? For someone to suddenly think oh yes you're right maybe I should sleep with that (insert person/ category). If that's not coercion, I don't know what is. And if not to coerce them into changing their minds what exactly are you trying to achieve in a discussion around consent?

Excellent OP Arabella, I wish this was taught at schools and colleges and printed on bus shelters and billboards.

Ted, I'm sure you're aware that there's a significant difference in context between your private group of like-minded friends on WhatsApp and a website that can be viewed by anyone and which is known to be watched by individuals who read in order to screenshot examples of "bigotry," lift entire sections of conversations to publish in clickbait articles, or to post goady, insincere crap for the fun of winding up those awful mumsnetters.

I actually do think that issues of mate selection at a sociological level are really interesting, that's why I brought up the example of Black women as discussed in the media during a recent series of Love Island.

But I don't feel like discussing it further here, not because I can't handle an intellectual discussion, or because I look down on young people, or because I'm not interested in the topic. I just have no desire to have any of my thoughts on the subject screenshotted and taken out of context by lurkers. It's a discussion I'd keep to my own circle of WhatsApp friends as we also enjoy discussing sociological shit from time to time.

In short: people aren't necessarily rejecting your discussion topic because they aren't as clever as you and your friends. They're just aware that this isn't a private conversation between friends.

You might get an interesting discussion running on this on the Relationships board though, as you'll have a large number of regulars there who are actively dating.

Why can't they accept "No"?

Any follow up question after "no" is chipping away at the absolute concept of "no" and chipping away at the right to have boundaries.

Absolutely this.

@MNHQ I am astounded that you deleted me for standing up for lesbians' right to say no to bi women.

I have an idea of why my view is in the minority and I think it’s because as much as a certain cohort on here crows about young women and wanting to protect them, they actually largely view them with utter contempt and are very resistant to the evolution of societal norms and don’t actually want to engage in any kind of meaningful feminist activism or conversation.

Oh no, we're not doing feminism nor feminist activism right. Who would have thought.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But that’s exactly my point - that some preferences are rooted in bigotry and discussing that is not coercive.

Yes it can be. Who is deciding what is "bigotry", exactly? I think we are mostly (not you, other pp) thinking about not wanting to have sex with a male if we are a lesbian, or a female if we are straight. Many people think that is "bigotry" if that person claims the gender identity of the opposite sex.

I don’t think lesbians are bigoted in not wanting to have sex with trans women, if that’s what you mean. I don’t think having a preference on the kind of genitals you’ll interact with is the same as filtering out partners based on race, weight, sexuality etc, which might have an element of prejudice. I think there is a place for discussion about the inclusion of trans women in lesbian spaces, and I don’t think wanting to exclude people on the basis of having a vagina or not is inherently transphobic. I think some further, related assumptions about trans people can stray into bigotry. I still think theorising about about why you’d exclude trans women from your pool of sexual partners could be an interesting exercise, I do not think you should be pressured into sleeping with them (and neither do the trans people that I know or am aware of). If I encountered someone who did think that I would vehemently disagree.

@ChattyLion

Excellent OP Arabella, I wish this was taught at schools and colleges and printed on bus shelters and billboards.

To be fair, the school sex ed materials do include bodily autonomy and consent, afair.

And there are campaigns on the subject, I started having a look about yesterday and foudn a few - largely seem to be on college campuses, that kind of thing.

An interesting discussion was the shift from 'no means no' to 'yes means yes'.

@Iidentifyasacat

Good grief *@TedMullins* give it a rest. Do you think everyone on this thread / board is of a certain age? I'm young, do my views not count because they don't match up with your experiences of being a young women. Even if someone's views are bigoted, what do you think you'll achieve by questioning that? For someone to suddenly think oh yes you're right maybe I should sleep with that (insert person/ category). If that's not coercion, I don't know what is. And if not to coerce them into changing their minds what exactly are you trying to achieve in a discussion around consent?

There doesn’t have to be an aim or an end goal to having a discussion? Some people just... find it interesting?

Arabella

An interesting discussion was the shift from 'no means no' to 'yes means yes'.

That is interesting. I don't know much about this. How did that come about? Can you point me in the right direction?

I don’t think having a preference on the kind of genitals you’ll interact with is the same as filtering out partners based on race, weight, sexuality etc, which might have an element of prejudice

@TedMullins It's not always about genitals. A lesbian shouldn't have to want sex with a transgender person even if the trans person has had gender reassignment surgery.

@bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg

Why can't they accept "No"?

Any follow up question after "no" is chipping away at the absolute concept of "no" and chipping away at the right to have boundaries.

Absolutely this.

@MNHQ I am astounded that you deleted me for standing up for lesbians' right to say no to bi women.

All of this

How strange for some people think that something as ineffable and personal as attraction can be overriden by someone telling you: "you're doing it wrong".

It strikes me that there is a wider sociological discussion to be had here.

But it isn't "Why don't some people want to have sex with certain other people? What does it all MEAN??" That's a valid question. But it's not the one most posters want to engage with.

The question is: how do we move society to a point where wholeheartedly and immediately accepting a woman's "no, I will not have sex with that individual/group" is the norm?

Because the actual context in which we live is that many, many people, particularly women, are still met with counterarguments, whining, resistance, accusations of being frigid/bigots/bitches, etc. when they attempt to say no. The notion that sex is owed to a partner because XYZ is still very widespread.

MrsWooster
Interesting graphic. I thought the point about fertility was a pertinent one to raise - actually people do talk about this, often very early on in a relationship. If you are of an age and place in your life where children are part of your aspirations, you should talk about this openly and honestly. My DH mentioned on our first date he was keen to have more kids. I ruled out dating anyone who'd had a vasectomy in my 30's and infertility is the cause of many people breaking up. So, whilst it might feel unfair, it is a significant issue and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

On the same theme - fertility also impacts on contraception. Which is another big aspect of consent around sexual behaviours for many people.
It is dishonest to conceal this if your partner is clear about wanting children.

@LadyFuHao

How strange for some people think that something as ineffable and personal as attraction can be overriden by someone telling you: "you're doing it wrong".

This!

@LadyFuHao

How strange for some people think that something as ineffable and personal as attraction can be overriden by someone telling you: "you're doing it wrong".

Exactly. People have turned particular people down so all sorts of reasons in this thread -

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4106577-To-ask-whats-the-weirdest-reason-you-have-decided-to-not-go-on-a-second-date-with-someone

Yet not wanting to have sex with whole subset of people is somehow treated differently.

"I have an idea of why my view is in the minority and I think it’s because as much as a certain cohort on here crows about young women and wanting to protect them, they actually largely view them with utter contempt and are very resistant to the evolution of societal norms and don’t actually want to engage in any kind of meaningful feminist activism or conversation."

Well that's rude as fuck, as well as totally wrong.

"No, I don’t believe you have an inalienable right not to be asked a question. I do think everyone has an inalienable right to decide who they’ll have sex with. But discussing it is not the same as pressuring someone to change their mind"

I also really dislike this disingenuous "oh we are just examining your prejudices, I'm only asking you to explain" when it comes to sexual preferences and consent. Let's be honest. If a man questions you on sexual preferences and why you're don't want to have sex with an individual, or a certain category of men, it's normally not having some sort of theoretical discussion and examining why certain beliefs are held - it's saying but why don't you want my cock inside you, is it because you're bigoted? Explain yourself.

Staying people have the right to question others on their sexual preferences and behaviour for their own interest is deeply unpleasant.