Consent for women

[ArabellaScott]

A reminder:

You don't owe anyone your attention.

You have no obligation to 'include' anyone in your 'dating pool'.

Your sexual preferences are yours and yours alone.

Nobody has the right to shame you for your sexual preferences.

Nobody has the right to question your sexual preferences.

When it comes to sex and sexual preferences, nobody has the right to demand your attention, your consideration or your attraction.

Not ever.

Christ this is exasperating. I’ll explain again: I don’t agree with you that the above example is problematic. People are allowed to be curious about how others’ preferences are formed. That does not mean they have the RIGHT to expect an explanation. They have the right to ASK, and you have the right to tell them to fuck off if you wish.

That can all be true at the same time as it being true that there is merit in disseminating how and why preferences are formed in a theoretical, cultural and social context. Sociology and sexual politics are legitimate areas of study and it’s baffling as to why that is such a problem to you. All of those things can be simultaneously true, someone having the right to be curious about a person’s preference does not trump the right of the person to HAVE and EXERCISE their preference. people have different opinions on what constitutes curiosity/conversation and what is boundary pushing, and that is okay, everyone has their own limits. Underpinning all of this is the fact that everyone has, or should have, ultimate, complete bodily autonomy and is not obliged to share their body with anyone. Of course if they say no, that should be accepted as set in stone. But that doesn’t mean it’s wrong to discuss in an abstract sense WHY they choose to exclude people from their dating pool if they wish to examine that, nor does it mean that is is always wrong to ask. In some contexts it absolutely would be wrong to question them, I agree, but I do not agree that the specific example I gave there is one of them. Consent is absolute, it’s not a grey area, but discussion around the formation of sexual preferences is not so black and white. I’m really going to have to stop engaging with this because I have explained again and again and again what my views on this are and every question I get asked completely misses the point or makes a totally incorrect assumption about my opinion. I am confident in my knowledge that I don’t hold any views that undermine women’s’ right to say no, and that no is absolute. You can disagree and feel differently but ultimately I think I know what my views are better than anyone on this thread.

This may well be upthread already.
twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1373162576306171904?s=21

Thanks MrsWooster that sheds a bit more light on the attack on consent as a sacrosanct concept.

Ted. I am sorry, I was drunk and irritable last night and came straight here from another thread, which was being trolled by someone trying to 'educate'. I can empathise that if you are trans then your dating pool may be limited and you would want to challenge that. It's hard enough finding a love match without being limited to people who are pan sexual or have a specific preference. It is the very definition of involuntary celibacy and it must be really difficult. It's fine to pose the question, I don't believe I would personally discount someone as a potential partner on the basis of them being trans, but this is not an out of the blue philosophical discussion amongst peers in the pub. The whole debate is loaded and It comes on the back of increasingly disadvantageous situations for women, dating app takeover, cotton ceiling workshops, trans status being hidden and reasonable people being called bigot and transphobe for even proposing that TW are not for all intents and purposes the same as W. Consent and the bodily boundary is not an appropriate sphere to challenge unconscious bias. Particularly at this point in time.

@AdHominemNonSequitur

Ted. I am sorry, I was drunk and irritable last night and came straight here from another thread, which was being trolled by someone trying to 'educate'. I can empathise that if you are trans then your dating pool may be limited and you would want to challenge that. It's hard enough finding a love match without being limited to people who are pan sexual or have a specific preference. It is the very definition of involuntary celibacy and it must be really difficult. It's fine to pose the question, I don't believe I would personally discount someone as a potential partner on the basis of them being trans, but this is not an out of the blue philosophical discussion amongst peers in the pub. The whole debate is loaded and It comes on the back of increasingly disadvantageous situations for women, dating app takeover, cotton ceiling workshops, trans status being hidden and reasonable people being called bigot and transphobe for even proposing that TW are not for all intents and purposes the same as W. Consent and the bodily boundary is not an appropriate sphere to challenge unconscious bias. Particularly at this point in time.

Okay but... I’m not trans. I’m a woman, the type that was born with a vagina.

@DaisiesandButtercups

Thanks MrsWooster that sheds a bit more light on the attack on consent as a sacrosanct concept.

Christ this is exasperating. I’ll explain again: I don’t agree with you that the above example is problematic. People are allowed to be curious about how others’ preferences are formed. That does not mean they have the RIGHT to expect an explanation. They have the right to ASK, and you have the right to tell them to fuck off if you wish

Christ this is exasperating. I'll explain again. Your example is problematic. It fails to understand that "no" is all that is needed.

The rejected person can be as curious as they want about why they were turned down but what makes you think they have a right to ask why? Why can't they accept "No"?

Any follow up question after "no" is chipping away at the absolute concept of "no" and chipping away at the right to have boundaries.

DaisiesandButtercups sorry I didn't mean to quote or refer to you.

I was referring to Ted's assertion's that it's okay to whine "but why?" if someone has refused to have sex with someone else.

@TedMullins

You say are finding this thread exasperating, you disagree with those on it, the actual subject of it seems to be of no interest to you, and you clearly can't think why we won't behave as you think we should, or follow the rules you feel should be followed in debate. You also show every sign of feeling insulted and aggrieved.

For goodness' sake, why on earth are you putting yourself through this? there must be places on the internet which wouldn't cause you all this upset.

It is not possible to "win" an argument on the internet; it is far better to walk softly away from it. Life is too short, even for young women; they will become old soon enough, and regret all the hours they wasted.

Right and I’ve told you I disagree that it’s problematic in any and all contexts to ask. I just... don’t agree. You don’t have to agree with me either. People can go through life having different opinions on the nuances around elements of a topic while still agreeing on the central tenets without anyone dying.

[quote AskingQuestionsAllTheTime]@TedMullins

You say are finding this thread exasperating, you disagree with those on it, the actual subject of it seems to be of no interest to you, and you clearly can't think why we won't behave as you think we should, or follow the rules you feel should be followed in debate. You also show every sign of feeling insulted and aggrieved.

For goodness' sake, why on earth are you putting yourself through this? there must be places on the internet which wouldn't cause you all this upset.

It is not possible to "win" an argument on the internet; it is far better to walk softly away from it. Life is too short, even for young women; they will become old soon enough, and regret all the hours they wasted.[/quote]
Actually I’d argue the people calling me a troll and an incel aren’t following the rules of a civilised debate. I am very interested and invested in consent and it being sacrosanct. That doesn’t mean you can’t ponder the nuances of why people arrive at their own personal preferences. I enjoy debates with people who can clearly set out their position without resorting to ad hominem attacks, which... well, I’m not the one doing that, am I?

Also isn’t “move away to another part of the internet, you’re the wrong kind of woman for this feminist board” the antithesis of everything feminism stands for? If you think I’m so woefully wrong and misinformed in my views then tell me why. If you believe it’s beneficial for women to think like you and not me, then give me some information to go away and consider and reevaluate my position. So far all I’m getting is baseless assumptions about my intentions, character and now even someone has decided I’m trans! It’s exasperating but also quite hilarious.

I am very interested and invested in consent and it being sacrosanct. That doesn’t mean you can’t ponder the nuances of why people arrive at their own personal preferences.

But that's the whole reason the OP started this thread: it doesn't matter what the reasons are precisely because consent sacrosanct. There is no need for justification.

calling me an incel aren’t following the rules of a civilised debate

To be clear I did not call you an incel. I queried what merit there would be in research on "why, oh why won't someone have sex with me?" (I'm paraphrasing) which seems to me veering towards taking the incel view seriously and giving it credibility.

@WarOnWomen

I am very interested and invested in consent and it being sacrosanct. That doesn’t mean you can’t ponder the nuances of why people arrive at their own personal preferences.

But that's the whole reason the OP started this thread: it doesn't matter what the reasons are precisely because consent sacrosanct. There is no need for justification.

The second sentence in Ted's statement completely contradicts the first.

@TedMullins

Also isn’t “move away to another part of the internet, you’re the wrong kind of woman for this feminist board” the antithesis of everything feminism stands for? If you think I’m so woefully wrong and misinformed in my views then tell me why. If you believe it’s beneficial for women to think like you and not me, then give me some information to go away and consider and reevaluate my position. So far all I’m getting is baseless assumptions about my intentions, character and now even someone has decided I’m trans! It’s exasperating but also quite hilarious.

You appear to have misunderstood: I neither know nor if I am honest care all that much about whether you are right or wrong, nor in forming such an opinion in order to explain to you why I think anything about something I am not bothered about. If you are misinformed, it is not my job to explain to you why that is the case or in what way it is the case, always supposing that it is, which I haven't taken any time to establish.

I am concerned about your time being wasted, not mine. I can ignore you, after all, but you are spending all this time shouting down a well, and there must be more interesting ways you could occupy it.

And I can't offer you a debate with (say) Kermode and Andreski, or even Amis, to assuage your need for intellectual demolition. I suspect they they like me would find argument against opinion less entrancing than perhaps you do.

"You have the right to expect your consent/decision/preference etc will be respected but you don’t have the right to expect that nobody will try and have an entirely theoretical discussion with you."

@TedMullins So women shouldn't expect to have the right not to be questioned (oh sorry, have a theoretical discussion) as to why they don't want to fuck someone?

I do not owe anyone an explanation as to why I don't want to fuck someone (an individual or a category) and I think men who believe they have the right to question me and ask me to explain myself on that/have a theoretical discussion with me, can fuck off quite frankly.

And if a woman expected they have the right to ask me to explain myself, they can fuck off too. But let's be honest, women rarely do this. It's men that think they have that entitlement. Women (well the sensible kind) tend to instead start threads/discussions to remind everyone of our rights (but occasionally a woman does come along and say we can't expect men not to question us)

Don't you wonder ted why yours is the minority view on this thread?

@PatriarchyChicken2021Champion

"You have the right to expect your consent/decision/preference etc will be respected but you don’t have the right to expect that nobody will try and have an entirely theoretical discussion with you."

@TedMullins So women shouldn't expect to have the right not to be questioned (oh sorry, have a theoretical discussion) as to why they don't want to fuck someone?

I do not owe anyone an explanation as to why I don't want to fuck someone (an individual or a category) and I think men who believe they have the right to question me and ask me to explain myself on that/have a theoretical discussion with me, can fuck off quite frankly.

And if a woman expected they have the right to ask me to explain myself, they can fuck off too. But let's be honest, women rarely do this. It's men that think they have that entitlement. Women (well the sensible kind) tend to instead start threads/discussions to remind everyone of our rights (but occasionally a woman does come along and say we can't expect men not to question us)

Don't you wonder ted why yours is the minority view on this thread?

Personally i and other women do question each other’s preferences because we find it interesting to talk about. One of my friends is a sex and relationships writer, it’s literally her job to question it.

No, I don’t believe you have an inalienable right not to be asked a question. I do think everyone has an inalienable right to decide who they’ll have sex with. But discussing it is not the same as pressuring someone to change their mind. You might think that’s a contradiction, I don’t.

As for wasting my time... I mean, it’s lockdown, I haven’t got much else on. I find this a really interesting portrait of the demographic on this board and I’m actually in my other group chat talking about and disseminating this very discussion. I have an idea of why my view is in the minority and I think it’s because as much as a certain cohort on here crows about young women and wanting to protect them, they actually largely view them with utter contempt and are very resistant to the evolution of societal norms and don’t actually want to engage in any kind of meaningful feminist activism or conversation

Your vagina doesn't invalidate the point. I was largely speaking hypothetically. However it does make it less clear why you are going to such pains to argue that it should be ok to debate the parameters of consent.

@AdHominemNonSequitur

Your vagina doesn't invalidate the point. I was largely speaking hypothetically. However it does make it less clear why you are going to such pains to argue that it should be ok to debate the parameters of consent.

Because if you take it to it’s logical conclusion there are people out there who say things like ‘I’d never sleep with a black man, they’re all misogynist and they’re ugly’. I mean, fine, don’t sleep with black men, nobody wants to force anyone to have sex with people they don’t want. Like, literally nobody that I know or associate with wants to do that. But it IS absolutely worth looking at why and how that person’s aversion to black men as sexual partners came about. The goal is not to change their mind but look at the context and potential ingrained prejudices that led to that. But ultimately yes, when it comes to who you want to have sex with you can hold preferences that are racist. It’s about being aware of that, not changing it.

Because if you take it to it’s logical conclusion there are people out there who say things like ‘I’d never sleep with a black man, they’re all misogynist and they’re ugly’. I mean, fine, don’t sleep with black men, nobody wants to force anyone to have sex with people they don’t want. Like, literally nobody that I know or associate with wants to do that. But it IS absolutely worth looking at why and how that person’s aversion to black men as sexual partners came about. The goal is not to change their mind but look at the context and potential ingrained prejudices that led to that. But ultimately yes, when it comes to who you want to have sex with you can hold preferences that are racist. It’s about being aware of that, not changing it
Who would be doing the questioning?
If I say I would never sleep with a black man, who are you to question me as to why?
Or do you mean the black man should ask me? Very rapey.
Do you mean a theoretical discussion with your mates about why I wont sleep with a black man, that's just gossip.
Will this help the black man get to sleep with me? No.

But you are spending literally hours arguing the toss over a minor technical point about sex based consent. Which very clearly communicates (in subtext if not in actual words) that you think that rejecting a trans person sexually is bigoted. You reinforce this by using rejecting someone sexually for their race as a comparator.

So that isn't taking it to it's logical conclusion. It is making a conceptual jump which links rejecting someone based on their biological sex to bigotry, which is well, a bit bigoted.

@Gurufloof

Because if you take it to it’s logical conclusion there are people out there who say things like ‘I’d never sleep with a black man, they’re all misogynist and they’re ugly’. I mean, fine, don’t sleep with black men, nobody wants to force anyone to have sex with people they don’t want. Like, literally nobody that I know or associate with wants to do that. But it IS absolutely worth looking at why and how that person’s aversion to black men as sexual partners came about. The goal is not to change their mind but look at the context and potential ingrained prejudices that led to that. But ultimately yes, when it comes to who you want to have sex with you can hold preferences that are racist. It’s about being aware of that, not changing it Who would be doing the questioning? If I say I would never sleep with a black man, who are you to question me as to why? Or do you mean the black man should ask me? Very rapey. Do you mean a theoretical discussion with your mates about why I wont sleep with a black man, that's just gossip. Will this help the black man get to sleep with me? No.

It’s not supposed to help the black man get to sleep with you. But yes, black men are totally within their rights to wonder why they are excluded from some people’s dating pool for being black, and white women can wonder why their friend says they won’t sleep with black men. People questioning it doesn’t mean they think black men have a right to sleep with anyone they want and claiming it does is just misunderstanding the whole concept of the theoretical

@AdHominemNonSequitur

So that isn't taking it to it's logical conclusion. It is making a conceptual jump which links rejecting someone based on their biological sex to bigotry, which is well, a bit bigoted.

But that’s exactly my point - that some preferences are rooted in bigotry and discussing that is not coercive. I made up that example as a basic way to illustrate the point, but it still stands whether you’re talking about black men, people who wear glasses or women with short hair, or literally anything. There is not an intention to change anyone’s mind, it’s just a discussion

No, I don’t believe you have an inalienable right not to be asked a question. I do think everyone has an inalienable right to decide who they’ll have sex with. But discussing it is not the same as pressuring someone to change their mind.

In many contexts, yes it would be. It's coercive if the person being rejected asks you. It's loaded.