Consent for women

[ArabellaScott]

A reminder:

You don't owe anyone your attention.

You have no obligation to 'include' anyone in your 'dating pool'.

Your sexual preferences are yours and yours alone.

Nobody has the right to shame you for your sexual preferences.

Nobody has the right to question your sexual preferences.

When it comes to sex and sexual preferences, nobody has the right to demand your attention, your consideration or your attraction.

Not ever.

@WarOnWomen

Arabella

An interesting discussion was the shift from 'no means no' to 'yes means yes'.

That is interesting. I don't know much about this. How did that come about? Can you point me in the right direction?

Hi, War.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2018/02/15/no-means-no-to-yes-means-yes-how-our-language-around-sexual-consent-has-changed/

www.huffpost.com/entry/yes-means-yes-means-no-means-no-is-not-enough_b_587299e7e4b0eb9e49bfbcb7

Seems to be two US articles on it, but interesting. Haven't quite worked out how I feel about it yet, but the framing of consent is v interesting, I think, and important.

'no means no' is not enough is the gist of it. I agree.

And now I have this song stuck in my head.

@MNHQ I am astounded that you deleted me for standing up for lesbians' right to say no to bi women.

Me, too, bd67th.

This tangent of the right and interest in discussing preferences takes me back to when I was a teenager. I currently have no interest in how anyone’s preferences are formed but I will defend their rights to their preferences. I find questioning someone’s preferences on a date rapey and outside a date just.. weird.

When I was young it was more question of my friends teasing me for liking clever, often not very good looking guys and me being baffled by their preferences for handsome idiots. It was never any detailed discussion about it or any justification. Then we all grew up.

The only thing I can see myself question would be if someone stated that they only wanted to date tall, dark, blue eyed men who went to the gym a lot, had a high income, played at least two instruments, liked both cats and dogs, sensitive, loved children and had both a summer house and a boat. I might suggest to broaden their dating pool slightly...maybe.

Sexual preferences are very personal and should not need justification. A no is always a no.

Is anyone else reading the words of a socialist journalist and having a vision of the Eiffel tower?

"Let your 'yes' be yes and your 'no' be no."

Our words mean something.

Historically the words of a woman have been seen to have less value than those of a man. A woman's witness didn't count for as much as a man's testimony. Which is partly why women are still struggling to be heard.

I am not attracted to what I think of as 'frog like' men. More than that, it is a visceral reaction, I am physically repelled by them. Bulbous eyes, rubbery lips, squat. Ugh. It's not reasonable or rational and I am sure some are perfectly delightful but it's how my body reacts.

Can I imagine a scenario where I might be chatting about preferences in the context of talking with a group of mates about what could possibly have caused my frog-faced aversion - no idea! - and remininisce over the nightmare time I was acting in a play as 'the loving wife' of the froggiest guy ever? Mayyyybe.

But, I have never admitted it before now. Nor needed to. Why does it matter to anyone else? And it might even be a bit insensitive if one of my mates or their partner looked a bit, well, froggy.

So I definitely wouldn't want to explain to a potential froggy looking date that that's why I'm not attracted to them.

My 'no' is enough. To my body and to my spaces.

It is not an opening bargaining position that I can be argued/persuaded /cajoled out of.

"What about this guy? He's less froggy looking than some. You should be worried about the toad-like ones, the frogs are fine. My friend is lovely and though he's froggy looking he wouldn't hurt a fly. Are you against all reptilian looking people too?
You're being froggist."

If I cannot manage an enthusiastic yes, then it's a definite no from me.

If someone doesn't want to have sex with a person from a different racial/ethnic background then chances are there's a racist reason behind it. I don't think that person is going to stop having a racial prejudice because they've had a good hard think about it.

Thanks Arabella.

Food for thought. So yes is yes is basically enthusiastic consent? A problem when one person or both are drunk and/or high on drugs because they may say yes but are they actually able to give consent?

I do like that consent is being discussed openly and explicitly in schools. We can at least let kids know that if one of them wants to take what they’re doing to another level, it’s a good idea to pause and ask their partner if that’s OK, and they should be prepared for their partner to say “Yes” or “No” or “Not today” or even “I’m not sure. Let’s talk about it first.”

I thought this pretty much sums it up:

"What we want to create is a standard of behavior, a paradigm shift as much as a legal shift.” But what does this “paradigm shift” mean for kids who are expected to abide by a standard that even educators and advocates can’t adequately explain? Probably it means we’re moving from the gray area of “no means no” to the gray area of “yes means yes.”

Oh please. Let's not bring racism into it. We are talking about orientation.

And it's ridiculous to say it's racism. I prefer men from certain ethnic backgrounds. It's nothing to do with racism. It could be do with my socialisation. It could be I like the aesthetic or their pheromones.

That's to Bordois btw.

The bloody quote didn't work.🤦🏼‍♀️

I was replying to this:

black men are totally within their rights to wonder why they areexcluded from some people’s dating pool for being black, and whitewomen can wonder why their friend says they won’t sleep with blackmen

Some people are racist and my point is that getting them to "examine their reasoning" isn't going to stop them from being racist

Some of the conversion therapy I endured was framed as just a question of examining why I was attracted to women, and what it could be rooted in - parental divorce, childhood sexual abuse, rape as a teen, exposure to pornography at a formative age. It was all tres civilized at that point, and because I wanted to be a 'good' person, I went along with this 'voluntarily', in the hope that I could improve myself.

All that endeavour achieved was to leave me fucked up and vulnerable for a very long time, including being vulnerable to the more extreme end of conversion therapy, which in my case involved rape.

You can have nice little intellectual conversations down the pub as you please, but you really need to own that every time you suggest that someone is morally deficient for who they are or are not attracted to, you are enabling coercion and undermining consent.

I don't care how many intellectual back pats you give yourself for being 'open minded'. You don't understand consent. There is never a 'but' in response to 'no' in a consent situation, in any context. If you think there is you need to be honest with yourself that you don't believe consent is sacrosanct at all. I mean, if that's your position, that's your position.

At the moment, it seems like you're saying you agree that consent is sacrosanct because you feel you must, just to get it out of the way so you can talk about the ways you feel it's appropriate to question it.

@Bordois

If someone doesn't want to have sex with a person from a different racial/ethnic background then chances are there's a racist reason behind it. I don't think that person is going to stop having a racial prejudice because they've had a good hard think about it.

At a fairly early-teenage age, I discovered that I got on better with people from roughly the same background as myself; people who would understand the same mores, have similar lived experiences, not be upset or horrified by (for example) my preferring the music of Beethoven to that of the Beatles nor think me a snob for it.

There may have been people from backgrounds other than my own in the town where I lived with whom I could have had a friendship on that basis, but I happened not to meet a single one. Precious few of what might be assumed to be my own background either.

Now, I could have spent all my time looking for something I had discovered to be very unusual indeed; or I could (as I did) spend my time with people I got along well enough with.

I knew too that there was a minute chance I would get along with a skinhead who wore bovver boots and treated women like some sort of slave.

One is "racist", but what's the other?

And why should the onus be on me to tell a skinhead I didn't want to fuck with him and then be obliged to explain all that, rather than just being able to say "No, but thank you, that's flattering" and get on with my life without all the bloody hassle?

Bunting I'm so sorry you went through that.

Excellent point though.

@Bordois

If someone doesn't want to have sex with a person from a different racial/ethnic background then chances are there's a racist reason behind it. I don't think that person is going to stop having a racial prejudice because they've had a good hard think about it.

If i don’t want to have sex with a woman, does that make me homophobic?

Bunting, I'm so sorry for your experiences. Thanks for sharing such excellent and eloquently argued points, you have said precisely what I wanted to but couldn't find the words for.

There is never a 'but' in response to 'no' in a consent situation, in any context.

Excellent post Bunting, really great points, and I'm sorry you were put through that

Bordois
If someone doesn't want to have sex with a person from a different racial/ethnic background then chances are there's a racist reason behind it.

Are you sure? You seem to be saying that if I dont want to have sex with an individual it must be because they are from a different ethnicity, and that makes me racist.

Did you mean to say that if I reject all people from an ethnic group it must be because I am racist?
Are you sure thats the only reason you can think of?

If i don’t want to have sex with a woman, does that make me homophobic?

I clarified my point a couple of posts later...

It doesn't matter why you don't want to have sex with a woman, or someone from a different race or religion or whatever other trait you don't find yourself attracted to.

If homophobia, racism or whateverism was the reason, getting you to examine the reasons why you have that prejudice about won't stop you having that prejudice.

Fahkin hell 🤦🏼‍♀️

Are you sure? You seem to be saying that if I dont want to have sexwith an individualit must be because they are from a different ethnicity, and that makes me racist.

Read my later post...

This place really needs an edit button.

@Bordois

If someone doesn't want to have sex with a person from a different racial/ethnic background then chances are there's a racist reason behind it. I don't think that person is going to stop having a racial prejudice because they've had a good hard think about it.

I was thinking about this aspect. I'm afraid I can't really see much merit in studying and analysing prejudices in shagging prejudices except possibly if someone was unwilling to consider a person from a different ethnic background as a partner (which is 100% fine) does that prejudice extend to other areas (e.g employment) where it isn't fine.

But then there's a long colonial history of men being happy to be in sexual relationships with women they would never marry. The modern version of this is the aid worker scandal.

No, I don’t believe you have an inalienable right not to be asked a question. I do think everyone has an inalienable right to decide who they’ll have sex with. But discussing it is not the same as pressuring someone to change their mind

I disagree. Anyone should have the right to choose not to have sex with somebody for literally any reason (or no particular reason!) without question.

It is one thing to muse in your own head upon the reasons people might have the sexual preferences they do. It is a completely different thing to actually question them about it. The only context I can see that being ok is friends talking about it together. I can imagine no situation in which it would be acceptable for the question to be asked by someone seeking to have sex with you. The response to "No" in that situation should never ever be "But why not?". The answer is "Because I don't want to, and that is all you need to know."

Bunting So sorry you had to go through that and thank you for expressing everything I wanted to say but much more eloquently.

@Bordois

This place really needs an edit button.

After seeing what's happened to your post, it really does.