How can feminism in the UK be more inclusive? Striving for equality for all women

[isequalityamyth]

I have spent 40 plus years pushing, fighting, scrapping at times for equality, fair pay, calling out sexism, even the every day minor crap...if you call me girl I’ll call you kid all day long (apparently that is really annoying). & no I’m not sitting on your lap or taking a ride in your "fuck mobile".

The reality is though that I’ve been fighting from a very white privileged middle class standpoint. I had the privilege of having a feminist father who encouraged my education, encouraged my promotion.

When I went for entry jobs post graduating I was met with a phew by the male interviewers. My name and hobbies are not necessarily reflective of how I look. I got told once in an interview they were relieved I wasn’t a heffer, I looked and sounded english (seriously yes this was stated). This was the normal.

Yes I’ve fought my way up through the glass ceiling, but I was given a ladder.

I'm not demeaning my own battle nor those of others, I am just conscious that I had help, I had a tool set, I had support, I had the right skin colour, I had privilege.

How does one take a different perspective, not all women are the same, we all have different experiences. We are not starting from the same position, as a white Middle class woman I definitely had a head start in the equality stakes.

So my long winded question - how do we make feminism more inclusive? Not so white MC centric. As surely feminism needs to be more inclusive and it doesn't feel that way right now.

Yes I agree.

Yeah.

The thread I just looked at felt a bit like that as well. And people really bit.

A few random thoughts.

Many feminists are lefties of the old school. The left has always had problems with divisions, splits.

Women are a huge group. Half the population. With all sorts of experiences, characteristics, things that matter to them.

IME feminists are pretty good at having massive arguments rather than focusing on shared endeavour. Purity politics. In and out groups. What is important. How feminists should behave, what they should believe etc.

Feels like the current aim is to drive wedges between different groups of women, on here.

Divide and rule.

What were you saying about the campaign you specifically mentioned?

Give your disingenuousness a rest, Dione, I spelt it out perfectly clearly.

I find it interesting that some of the arguments from USA relating to their history that come up on this board are in the OP of the other thread.

The fact that so many people bit. I'm a white woman blah. It's not good.

How would the conversation have gone if the women who frequent that board were left to it.

That bad? Again, not a slur on you, but I didn't look, because I know my own impulse-control, or lack of it, and I didn't want to be lured into sticking my oar in. Especially if there was something about me. (NOT asking- genuinely don't want to know.)

If MNers over there wanted my opinion about their opinion of FWR, they'd have posted over here. I know how I feel about blokes turning up and doing the whole speaking-as-a-man thing, and I don't want to mimic that dynamic elsewhere.

I bloody hate Americanism race hate imports.

They can stick it in the same bin as chlorinated chicken.

Give your disingenuousness a rest, Dione, I spelt it out perfectly clearly.

You really didn't @Ereshkigalangcleg. Do you support the women who were assaulted while protesting against male violence? Are you neutral towards the women protesting against male violence? Do you support the police response to the women of Clampham Common?

What exactly are you actually saying about the campaign you specifically mentioned?

I don't support the police actions at the vigil/protest. I also don't support Sisters Uncut. As I quite clearly said. I didn't pass comment on anything other than Sisters Uncut's dishonest campaign and their hijacking of Sarah Everard's murder to push it, and the public comments made by members which could put any trial in jeopardy, and that I made perfectly clear.

So again, give it a rest. I'm not the only person to point out that you twist people's words. Stop the disingenuous smear attempts. You're not very good at it.

If genuine Black and Asian and mixed UK (and Irish) feminist/GC MNetters want to enact real change, then they also need to get off these boards for real meet-ups: and then back on here again.

FiLiA is a really good starting point it seems.

These boards are stuffed to the gills with goady twats. Lipstick Alley (USA site) points out they have insert rude word race fakers racist men taking the piss out of their talk board and trying to stop them being out, loud, proud, black lesbians. To disrupt them and stop them talking about womens Rights.

Ethnic minority women in the UK suffer terribly in so, so many ways.

The focus needs to be on females.

Lift up women like Hibo Wardare. Promote. Encourage. Support.

Stop getting caught up in the fucking racist noise. Start doing. Start lifting. Start promoting.

I personally carry an Oral History and I'll be damned if anyone will stop me passing it along.

S* Uncut are a misogynist mens group who are hell bent on destroying girls and women.

For anyone who doesn't know; they are called that because they believe:

Men = sisters.
Women = Cisters

"Uncut" refers to them NOT having their penises surgically removed.

Ergo, they are a MRA/TRA franchise out to destroy the physical safety of girls and women.

*If genuine Black and Asian and mixed UK (and Irish) feminist/GC MNetters want to enact real change, then they also need to get off these boards for real meet-ups: and then back on here again.

I am a genuine feminist Mnetter. I've been on a real meet-up, albeit a fair few years ago. I'm considering @Ereshkigalangcleg's point, but I keep coming down on the side of women. Women against racism and women against patriarchal institutions.

@NiceGerbil
IME feminists are pretty good at having massive arguments rather than focusing on shared endeavour. Purity politics. In and out groups. What is important. How feminists should behave, what they should believe etc.

This is definitely a thing. It's super important to maintain focus on what's being discussed at any given time and to not let areas we don't completely agree on get in the way of dealing with stuff if we want to actually get things done. I'm wary when people look at feminist groups and feel a need to make sure they don't support certain areas of feminism, regardless of if it's at all relevant.

I've seen it on here a few times where people will look at groups supporting right to protest or whatever are immediately dismissed because they make it clear they support trans women for example. Or dare to say "cis" somewhere in their information...which brings me nicely to your next point:
Feels like the current aim is to drive wedges between different groups of women, on here.

Divide and rule.

I think my desire to push back against this is why I refuse to let trans women be excluded from feminism. I see such a massive christian anti-science influence in the anti-trans rhetoric...and, as I've said else where a few times: It's the same rhetoric traditionally used against BAME/LGB people...and WMC people are equally oblivious to it as a tactic as they traditionally have been.

I'm a bit dubious about "BAME". Seems like a pseudo-progressive way of saying non-white. I dunno, maybe they like it over at Black MNers, but in my RL, people hate being rolled into some monolith of 'other'.

And anti-science? Oh pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Dione

If you can make it to FiLiA, do.

Real MNetters have been here decades +

We've seen the evolution of sex-bating/race-bating/religion-bating shit on these boards.

And many of us were here BEFORE this particular board was created.

@PotholeParadies

I'm a bit dubious about "BAME". Seems like a pseudo-progressive way of saying non-white. I dunno, maybe they like it over at Black MNers, but in my RL, people hate being rolled into some monolith of 'other'.

And anti-science? Oh pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Good discussion at LSHTM: Don't call me BAME

The aim of this event is to engage in a conversation around the term BAME within research, politics and academia, both nationally and internationally. We hope to encourage people within the field of Higher Education and global health to reflect on the language they use to describe others and the perceptions it produces.

About the speakers

Dr Sheena Kalayil

With a doctorate in sociolinguistics, Dr Sheena Kalayil is a writer, Senior Language Tutor and Teaching Fellow at the University of Manchester. She grew up in Zambia, Zimbabwe and India and has taught Higher Education since 2002. As a writer, she has published three novels of which ‘The Bureau of Second Chances’ won the Writers’ Guild Award for Best First Novel.

Dr Addy Adelaine

Working in the UK and internationally, Dr Addy Adelaine is a Scholar-Activist with a PhD in International Social Work. As a lecturer in gender and International Development, her expertise lies in action research, inclusive accountability, race and youth equality, gender and humanitarianism. She is the founder and CEO of Ladders4Action, a non-profit organisation engaged in social justice and equality.

Don't worry about Feminism. Instead ask yourself if X is good for women and girls. In situation X did we assume somehow that the women are less valuable than the men

I have not read through most of the thread, but this post is invaluable and worth repeating as often as needed.

see such a massive christian anti-science influence in the anti-trans rhetoric

It's nonsense. That's not what it is in the U.K for what you call "anti trans". You're letting your US-centric confirmation bias blind you. Many on this board have considered these issues deeply. I have read scientific papers in a variety of fields. You personally haven't even tried to engage regarding the science, you flounced from the thread where you thought you were magnanimously educating the heathens because someone used the term "trans lobby". The horror!

We don't really have the religious right here in the same way so your assessment is inaccurate, but I and many others who participate in the truly grassroots movement that is GC feminism in the U.K. would no doubt be happy to discuss your theories with you and refute them. But from what Ive seen you don't really engage apart from to snipe at women you feel morally superior to. You aren't.

Feminism should centre women and girls. It's really ok, honestly it is, to have a movement which puts our needs as a sex class first, and which advocates for us politically.

Don't worry about Feminism. Instead ask yourself if X is good for women and girls. In situation X did we assume somehow that the women are less valuable than the men

Yes, I think people do get caught up in feminism with a capital F which is how it gets hijacked by other stuff.

a massive christian anti-science influence in the anti-trans rhetoric

This is a discussion about people who are feminists and what feminism means to them. Why are you wanging on about people who hate trans people?

Wven on that point i think you might be wring. Did you hear that dad talking to the ACLU? Religious homophobe very pro trans.

Anyway this thread is about UK feminism not American racism and/or transphobia.

I'm a middle class Indian woman.

Am I supposed to feel 'excluded' from feminism because of my dark skin?

If I say I don't feel excluded or marginalised, have I accidentally broken the fabric of spacetime?

Does being middle class mean I have to hand back my badge of being a dark skinned woman?

PurpleHoodie I very much agree with you

The focus needs to be on females.

Lift up women like Hibo Wardare. Promote. Encourage. Support.

Stop getting caught up in the fucking racist noise. Start doing. Start lifting. Start promoting.

@MissBarbary

Would you describe the women making denigrating remarks about your job as feminists though?

Because they don’t sound like feminists to me

Isn't that the infamous "no true Scotsman" argument ?

On another thread you've self- identified, as it were , as a feminist but are complaining on this thread that another poster on the other thread, who presumably from her posting history also self- identifies as a feminist, doesn't agree with you and has no right to disagree with you.

Can you point out where I’ve said anyone has no right to disagree with me, @MissBarbary?

Oh and I don’t identify as a feminist. I am one.