How can feminism in the UK be more inclusive? Striving for equality for all women

[isequalityamyth]

I have spent 40 plus years pushing, fighting, scrapping at times for equality, fair pay, calling out sexism, even the every day minor crap...if you call me girl I’ll call you kid all day long (apparently that is really annoying). & no I’m not sitting on your lap or taking a ride in your "fuck mobile".

The reality is though that I’ve been fighting from a very white privileged middle class standpoint. I had the privilege of having a feminist father who encouraged my education, encouraged my promotion.

When I went for entry jobs post graduating I was met with a phew by the male interviewers. My name and hobbies are not necessarily reflective of how I look. I got told once in an interview they were relieved I wasn’t a heffer, I looked and sounded english (seriously yes this was stated). This was the normal.

Yes I’ve fought my way up through the glass ceiling, but I was given a ladder.

I'm not demeaning my own battle nor those of others, I am just conscious that I had help, I had a tool set, I had support, I had the right skin colour, I had privilege.

How does one take a different perspective, not all women are the same, we all have different experiences. We are not starting from the same position, as a white Middle class woman I definitely had a head start in the equality stakes.

So my long winded question - how do we make feminism more inclusive? Not so white MC centric. As surely feminism needs to be more inclusive and it doesn't feel that way right now.

Perhaps we should have a pinned warning

“all views welcome but you will be required to explain and justify them and people might disagree”

@Sillydoggy

Perhaps we should have a pinned warning

“all views welcome but you will be required to explain and justify them and people might disagree”

YES

'arse cheeks hanging out' is a particularly grim turn off phrase.

The same argument was used about ankles years ago.

The idea that ordinary man will be driven to harass or assault by an attractive something or other is an attitude that is v down on men. It's not a feminist view and yet we're the ones who are man haters :/

Modes of dress vary a lot through time and area. Some remote areas the women don't/ didn't wear tops (nor did the men). That was normal. Were those women and girls asking for it?

And yes lots of girls just follow fashion. Men know this. They know a 13 yo schoolgirl with her skirt rolled up isn't seeking to be leched over by all and sundry. They do it anyway.

Also. The fashion now passing for young men to go around with their trousers sometimes below their bum cheeks they were so low. That was seen as funny. No one said they were asking for sexual harassment from men etc.

Showing a lot/ covering a lot is two sides of the same coin. Both things that men like to see.

The idea that ordinary man will be driven to harass or assault by an attractive something or other is an attitude that is v down on men. It's not a feminist view and yet we're the ones who are man haters

No, this is not " the idea"....and yes, most men can "control themselves". But naive, I think, for people not to notice conspicuous displays of bums and breasts, or not to think that it may well attract some unwelcome attention from some men.

It may not be a "feminist view". It is a realistic one, though. The problem with " isms" is that they deal with with what " ought ideally to be" and what actually is.

rather than with what actually is

There is a thread running currently in Black Mumsnetters about how and why Black women find current feminist discourse alienating and excluding, it would probably be an illuminating read.

Since we know that there is no brain differences between male and female we need to think what drives significant differences in clothing choices , tight , skimpy, baggy , comfortable

and I suspect it's sex... expressing an unconscious desire to attract a mate.

so clothing that is seen by many as provocative probably is giving a "come and get it " message which at best is therefore teasing

Because we are biological beings

Huge difference between saying think about how you present yourself, and imposing different standards for males and females

Evolutionary psychology isn’t real science though and has been widely debunked. Clothing choices are cultural, which is why you don’t see many people ‘attracting a mate’ with tricorn hats or codpieces these days.

It's cultural absolutely but that doesn't mean it isn't driven by that biological urge

As in the same clothing choices are not seen in the same way, although generally a woman showing more skin than average is always interpreted as indicating availability , wether that is a glimpse of an ankle or a whole lot more

And pretty consistent also is that men tend to signify wealth ( eg paying for the date ) and status a bit more than physical body attributes

P.S. I take a very dubious view of people trying to invite women they presume to be white women into Black Mumsnetters.

Did you bloody ask anyone there if they wanted their thread hawked around MN? Even if you yourself are black and a longterm poster in Black Mumsnetters, do you seriously think you have the right to make a mass invitation on behalf of every single other poster in there? They get enough white trolls as it is.

They fought for that space. It is their space, and they don't need to be gawked at. They are not there to be used as a weapon by other MNers with an axe to grind.

Agree leave the black mumsnetters section alone. Reading is obviously fine but there was already a thread I saw that was essentially full posters saying I'm white and I don't recognise these perspectives

@isequalityamyth

I have spent 40 plus years pushing, fighting, scrapping at times for equality, fair pay, calling out sexism, even the every day minor crap...if you call me girl I’ll call you kid all day long (apparently that is really annoying). & no I’m not sitting on your lap or taking a ride in your "fuck mobile".

The reality is though that I’ve been fighting from a very white privileged middle class standpoint. I had the privilege of having a feminist father who encouraged my education, encouraged my promotion.

When I went for entry jobs post graduating I was met with a phew by the male interviewers. My name and hobbies are not necessarily reflective of how I look. I got told once in an interview they were relieved I wasn’t a heffer, I looked and sounded english (seriously yes this was stated). This was the normal.

Yes I’ve fought my way up through the glass ceiling, but I was given a ladder.

I'm not demeaning my own battle nor those of others, I am just conscious that I had help, I had a tool set, I had support, I had the right skin colour, I had privilege.

How does one take a different perspective, not all women are the same, we all have different experiences. We are not starting from the same position, as a white Middle class woman I definitely had a head start in the equality stakes.

So my long winded question - how do we make feminism more inclusive? Not so white MC centric. As surely feminism needs to be more inclusive and it doesn't feel that way right now.

i feel like people in this thread have made some great points about the need to highlight issues that women of colour and disabled women face, but i will also bring to light that LGBT women should be centred in feminism, especially trans women. Trans women face discrimination not only in our patriarchal society, but also in feminist and LGBT spaces alike. They face hate and violence from so many ends and need the support of intersectional feminism.

'No, this is not " the idea"....and yes, most men can "control themselves". But naive, I think, for people not to notice conspicuous displays of bums and breasts, or not to think that it may well attract some unwelcome attention from some men.'

So in places where neither the men or women cover their chests, the women are asking for sexual attention?

You didn't respond to that.

I also dispute the male money thing. I can think of a fair number of rich famous women who date or have married much younger men.

And of course lots of women notice attractive male physiques.

The uncovering or covering of women in different cultures is to meet male driven demands. Our clothing is always up for criticism. Usually because it's too tempting for men.

It's a terrible attitude. Which only serves to excuse poor behaviour by men.

The other point is that women and girls are subject to 'unwelcome attention' from men whatever they are wearing. I assume that's a euphemism for harassment/ assault.

Look at what she was wearing is a standard port of call when it comes to minimising male sex offences. It's just shitty.

Trans women should be centred in feminism.

Why?

Why more than female people who are disabled, living in poverty, of minority religious or ethnic groups, are lesbians?

And across the board women and girls face sexual harassment, sexual coercion, sexual violence etc.

Why are trans women the most important group to centre in feminism?

especially trans women

No. Feminism is for female people. Trans people have a rights movement, so do women and girls, and this is feminism, and the issues of males are not the focus.

need the support of intersectional feminism.

True intersectionality recognises that a major axis of oppression is being born female.

No transwomen are explicitly excluded from feminism because they don’t meet the basic criteria of being female. They have their own movement. Feminism is not responsible for promoting causes that do not benefit women.

I work for a homelessness charity in the UK. We get involved in things that affect our clients - housing policy, benefits, poverty, access to education and health, mental health issues, criminal justice, drugs and alcohol, domestic violence, prostitution, legal advice.

We dont do anything about cat and dog rescues, animal sanctuaries, tree planting, green issues , sports, maritime conservation, lifeboat charities, mountain rescue. These are all good things but they are not what we do.

We wish every success to the great people and organisations that work in these sectors. But we don’t. We can’t do everything.

We don’t criticise the donkey rescue for not including our clients in their work. Even though their clients are mammals and so are our clients. And they provide accommodation and our clients needs accommodation .

We don’t criticise mountain rescue or the air ambulance even though they specifically rescue humans and our clients are humans too. But they work with in a different locus.

We don’t even attack women’s refuges, even though they help their clients find accommodation and provide other support- that’s exactly what our clients need too. We don’t demand that they are more inclusive and deal with our clients who have similar ( but not the same ) needs.

We don’t start threads saying they are the wrong colour or class or ideology. On the contrary, we take every opportunity to say what a great organisation they are and please support them too if you can.

Apart from that, we let them do their own thing and we do ours.

They face hate and violence from so many ends

begaydocrime you may be interested in the following stats:

Transwomen murdered in the UK in 2020: none.

Women murdered in the UK in 2020: approximately one woman murdered every three days.

I've hidden the black MN topic. It isn't for me as I'm not black, and I don't want to read threads where I have no right of reply.

Well said IMOGEN

I think we know why people don’t approve of us here. They come and tell us quite regularly and make lots of sweeping statements but seldom stay around to discuss it.

Mostly it seems to be that:

we challenge all arguments,

we are very bad at virtue signalling and like to discuss whether statements are actually true before we agree with them.

We don’t do mantras

We are fiercely passionate about protecting women and sometimes that brings us into conflict with groups who do not centre women.

We only focus on women and that excludes other causes that people think are important (and I’m sure they are but they are not feminism)

We have spent a long time discussing our arguments so we are prepared to debate. If people come here with mantras or barely formed ideas they will face stiff debate and not everyone likes that.

If we disagree we tell people, we don’t pretend we agree just to be nice.

We never cancel people for wrongthink so we will discuss anyone even if they are offensive or unfashionable (apparently this is a bad thing).

We do debate when we are instructed that there is NO DEBATE

Most people here don’t think transwomen belong in feminism

The only thing I would change to make us more welcoming is that if you come on here with poorly formed views a lot of people will challenge you all at the same time and that can be a bit much. Perhaps we could learn to back off once two or three people are offering challenge.