How can feminism in the UK be more inclusive? Striving for equality for all women

[isequalityamyth]

I have spent 40 plus years pushing, fighting, scrapping at times for equality, fair pay, calling out sexism, even the every day minor crap...if you call me girl I’ll call you kid all day long (apparently that is really annoying). & no I’m not sitting on your lap or taking a ride in your "fuck mobile".

The reality is though that I’ve been fighting from a very white privileged middle class standpoint. I had the privilege of having a feminist father who encouraged my education, encouraged my promotion.

When I went for entry jobs post graduating I was met with a phew by the male interviewers. My name and hobbies are not necessarily reflective of how I look. I got told once in an interview they were relieved I wasn’t a heffer, I looked and sounded english (seriously yes this was stated). This was the normal.

Yes I’ve fought my way up through the glass ceiling, but I was given a ladder.

I'm not demeaning my own battle nor those of others, I am just conscious that I had help, I had a tool set, I had support, I had the right skin colour, I had privilege.

How does one take a different perspective, not all women are the same, we all have different experiences. We are not starting from the same position, as a white Middle class woman I definitely had a head start in the equality stakes.

So my long winded question - how do we make feminism more inclusive? Not so white MC centric. As surely feminism needs to be more inclusive and it doesn't feel that way right now.

All women are included in feminism whether they want to be or not because the problem being addressed is women's subordination as a sex class - all women are considered less than the default male whether they're the daughter of an aristocrat or a bricklayer (my grandfather). If feminism doesn't seek to address the second class status of women what's the point?

From the OP
I looked and sounded english (seriously yes this was stated). This was the normal.

But we're in England... Looking and sounding English is normal.

The population of the UK is almost entirely white.
2% of the population is black. Another 3% or so is Asian/other non-white.

You can't just take take take from English Feminists, everything they have to say, all the work they have done and is still being done, then complain that the movement is "too English".

Feminists support women. If you have a problem with those supportive humans being white, in a majority white country, you sound a bit.... I'm sure there's a word....

It's more nuanced than that though.

Due to a variety of reasons (that I'm sure we are all aware of) certain women have more of a platform, more connections, more influence etc.

As politics has become more of a career thing the people we hear from (both sexes, right and left etc) have become more of a certain shared 'type'. Which is not good.

Anyway yes it would be foolish to say that the feminist voices heard on the news etc aren't usually similar.

And people tend to care more about stuff they have experience of. That's not surprising. Some things that affect one group others won't even have had cross their mind.

The best thing to do is
Listen and learn
Try not to be knee jerk defensive or say why don't you do this that etc
Donate
Flag the things in conversations if it's relevant
If you have any chance then bring eg orgs or people or etc to whatever. Charities to support at work. Speakers. I dunno. Whatever.
And if you've got a real platform then talk about the stuff or better get someone who knows to talk about it

I mean there's no point getting angry. All this argy bargy. It's so divisive.

EG disability. I've got a lifelong physical disability. I wouldn't expect standard people to have a clue what it all has meant. And the stuff people come out with! Wow.

That's why there are groups to advocate for people with disabilities, to raise awareness, get people for whom it's understandably not crossed their mind to hear about it.

I also think there's a bit of divide and rule going on around this at the moment with all this as well. Not referring to anyone on this thread- just in general.

We all have causes that are very important to us that are outside feminism. If it belong inside feminism (ie it campaigns for the benefit or protection of wholly or majorly women and girls) then feminists will support it and I have never seen any evidence that women do not give wholehearted support to campaigns against fgm, support for religious women’s right to single sex spaces, disabled women’s rights to single sex carers, better maternity care for black women, shelters for minority women and other women focussed campaigns.

The secondary causes that we support often overlap with feminism but are not wholly inside - free speech, disability rights, racism - these will cause conflict both within ourselves and outside. This is why women can feel unwelcome. Feminism is not compatible with religions that think women are lesser than men but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t women who are both religious and feminists. Those women have a bit of a juggling act to do and will not always feel comfortable in a feminist space. We all have that conflict within us. I used that example but many people have more than one issue and they are not always compatible. Free speech impacts women strongly but it also impacts some pretty unpleasant men. Racism is an important issue for many women but there are some very misogynistic views in the anti racism campaigns.

People should not expect feminism to lend its support to any other campaign than that of women and girls. Of course some feminists do and that is fine but It is not reasonable to shout at feminists for not supporting our other causes when they are not about women and girls. There seems to be a lot of that going on at the present.

People should not expect feminism to lend its support to any other campaign than that of women and girls. Of course some feminists do and that is fine but It is not reasonable to shout at feminists for not supporting our other causes when they are not about women and girls. There seems to be a lot of that going on at the present.

This. Great post.

I think it is sad that women are divided. I think feminism is for all women, but obviously black women also face additional challenges due to racism. I wish there was an easy way for us all to work together

If women focus on what unites them there need be no division. The facts of women's lives on account of their biology (their sexed body ) and their role in the family, and with child and elder care.

Apart from those factors there is, of course, much diversity of background, age, social and cultural background, nationality, race, ethnicity, disability and so on. What lies beneath and cuts through all of the, though, is the fact of the female position and role in relation to society.

But even if we only put down the obvious trolls, won’t some new black poster think that we put down one of them

Surely what matters is not someone's perceived skin colour or ethnicity, more so the quality of their points. Nobody should expect to go totally unchallenged.

FWR uses micro aggressions like picking people’s grammar apart instead of listening to the point they are making

It is often not so much "picking grammar apart" as trying to elucidate what the actual point or argument is. Clarity is important, as woolly thinking and expression often reflects a lack of clarity and precision in thinking. Woolliness can also be used as a cover for the propagation of cliches and stereotypes .

Getting better at articulating your points is a useful skill, and having your points challenged is one way to improve on this.

I do have a problem with unfounded assumptions and I would hate for anyone who would actually enjoy being on this board to avoid it due to a misconception about FWR and never look in

Misconceptions based on hearsay are common in any area of life. The only way to check out whether something is for you is to try it out and engage with it; test it out yourself.

People cannot be expected to limit, or tailor, the discussion on issues on the basis of what people looking in might possibly think. Integrity is important.

@Barracker

I don't really recognise what it is you seem to be seeing as white middle class feminism.

The feminism I see is about all female people. No female person is excluded from participating in feminist activities, or writing her feminist thoughts. I don't see feminism as a lovely party that you may or may not get a VIP invitation to.

It's a movement of women, by women, to liberate each and every one of us.

This. I don’t recognise the feminism that you talk about in your OP.

We cannot see the appearance of the people posting on here. Race, age, dress sense, tattoos, make up, beard, no idea.

We cannot see the appearance of the people posting on here. Race, age, dress sense, tattoos, make up, beard, no idea

True!

Because of its reputation, & image, in the popular mind Mumsnet conveys a certain impression, and as a result you encounter stereotypical assumptions all of the time. I think people would be surprised at the diversity of people who post here.

Many people, especially on FWR, are very articulate and some, even, very impressive with their breadth and depth of understanding and knowledge. but those skills in articulation most often come not from an expensive, private school education, but from years spent in observing, thinking, reflecting, reading, researching, testing out.

When a person is motivated they are often capable of great things.

Yup. I've given up arguing the Karen thing. (full disclosure, it's my name). Apparently I should listen more, educate myself about Jim Crow laws and understand why black mothers are frightened for their sons, who might be killed by the police.

I totally get all that, I know it's all real. But I live in a part of Scotland where the black population is absolutely tiny. The police don't carry guns here and we've never had Jim Crow laws or voting rights based upon race.

My feminism, like everyone else's, will be based in my community, which has plenty of its own issues. We have enough to sort out without importing American social problems that stem from an entirely different history and exist currently in an entirely different social and political landscape.

Particularly because we can’t see anyone’s personal attributes there is also a tendency to attribute all views that people don’t like to ‘middle class white women’ or ‘Religious far right’ for that matter. Actually views you don’t like come from all sorts of women. People don’t want to admit that women might disagree with them for many reasons and like to think that it is just because they are ‘bad people’ so they give them these nonsense labels.

@NiceGerbil

'Feminism by default includes all women!

I think this is actively not true. It includes women who sign up to certain base assumptions, typically from a liberal progressive POV or leftist progressive POV. It often deliberately excludes other women.'

Bollocks.

Rape
DV
Treatment by the medical establishment
Treatment by the lawmakers and enforcers
Poverty
Attitudes to and issues of lone parents who are mainly women
Sexual violence in schools
Etc etc
And much more around the world of course

Yes women who have additional axes of oppression have it multiplied. And have other issues as well. Related to eg religion, or higher rates of abuse for those with learning difficulties.

But the idea that the core issues of feminism are not fundamentals is really odd.

Yes, feminism addresses issues that affect all women. But I didn't say it dididn't, I said it didn't include all women.

But if you are a woman who has the wrong opinion on any number of topics, you are simply not invited into the conversation.

Look how often there are comments here now that many women participating in these discussions don't seem to have the usual sort of feminist ideas, this is not meant to be complimentary, and someone else will comment that this is because they are interested in opposing gender ideology, or something else, not feminism, therefore their ideas are non-feminist.

Look at threads on topics like motherhood and it comes to the fore.

Why do you think women get called handmaidens if they have the wrong opinions?

What does that even mean if women's ideas about women, how to make society a good place for women, is what feminism is about? Sorry woman, you have the wrong ideas.

If you asked feminists whether conservative women, or right wing women, or religious women, should be considered part of the feminist discourse when speaking on these subjects, what do you think the answer you would get would be? Heck, a lot of feminists consider Camille Paglia to be outside the feminist discourse, because she has the wrong opinions.

There can be a real attempt in feminism to have it both ways - to claim to speak for the experience of women while at the same time drawing a clear line around which women are allowed to have their experience and their understanding of their experience as part of the feminist discourse. There is a lot of dodging difficult issues by putting them outside the fence.

Now - if feminism is a particular political position, that may all be fine. But it limits the claims you can make about representation.

I have to say, I've never seen people on FWR pick apart grammar?

There can be a lot of focus on language questions, and I think some people feel that really gets into the weeds. It just doesn't resonate with them.

And there is sometimes a tendency to assume questions or remarks are from a black of bad faith and I believe that has simply turned away a number of people. Often the best, sometimes rather surprising, discussions happen when people assume good faith anyway. So I see that as worthwhile for a lot of reasons.

Hmm, should say "from a place of bad faith" above.I don't know what the heck what I wrote meant.

Smoked you've fallen into the trap of thinking that feminism is Feminism PLC.

Disagreement between women is not exclusion. It is debate. It is women as human beings.

Sure some people will come to this forum and say what feminism is and is not. Opinion is not law.

There is no Mumsnet Feminism Manifesto. There is no leadership panel going out to declare itself The Representation of Feminism.

There is no single discourse. If a group of women are discussing the treatment of single mothers in Galway they would quite rightly draw a clear line if people tried to shift the conversation to women driving in Saudi. That's not dodging discourse.

The assumption of some people that this board is exclusively white middle class English is I think also based in racism and classism.

Everybody here is so articulate

Therefore it is assumed they cannot be brown or working class or Glaswegian.

Racist snobs.

Yes 30percent that assumption is racist and classist but it’s also insulting. Are people suggesting that middle class white women shouldn’t have any say? That all their opinions are wrong? That they should shut up? I see a role for all women. Inclusive doesn’t mean that any one group should be rubbished and ignored.

Feminism does have boundaries though. An opinion is not feminist just because it comes from a woman. The woman who campaigned against votes for women would not be considered a part of feminism. Feminism may enable you to make your own unfeminist choices but it will not support you to impose them on other women.

@30PercentRecycled

Smoked you've fallen into the trap of thinking that feminism is Feminism PLC.

Disagreement between women is not exclusion. It is debate. It is women as human beings.

Sure some people will come to this forum and say what feminism is and is not. Opinion is not law.

There is no Mumsnet Feminism Manifesto. There is no leadership panel going out to declare itself The Representation of Feminism.

There is no single discourse. If a group of women are discussing the treatment of single mothers in Galway they would quite rightly draw a clear line if people tried to shift the conversation to women driving in Saudi. That's not dodging discourse.

No, I really disagree with this.

There are issues where there is a discourse with real disagreement, yes.

There are also a host of issues where certain viewpoints will simply be dismissed as non-feminist, and not something feminism can incorporate and engage with other than appositionally.

Up until recently, conservative women's viewpoints have simply been excluded, they were not welcome at feminist events or in feminist discussions, they developed their own organisations as a result and disassociated themselves from it. and - this is important - often they have a lot to say on topics where feminism has struggled with it's response. So it's been detrimental to feminism.

Look at how pro-life women's groups became excluded from the women's march in the US. What standing is given to Catholic women in feminist discussions around birth control? Or Muslim women in discussions of sexualisation of women in fashion and how modesty relates to that?

Ask if feminism is a left wing position, and see what answers you get. That's a political designation, not sex based.

There is a reason so many women have said they don't see themselves reflected in feminism. That should be a huge red flag if feminism is meant to be a discourse that includes them, but the attitude you get you tend to get something like the one mentioned in regard to the Labour Party on the other thread "it's not us it's the voters who are mistaken."

And I am talking about feminism as a movement, not MN boards, though they tend to reflect the attitudes of the movement as a whole.

If people want feminism to be exclusive, that's valid. But you can't have your cake and eat it too.

@Sillydoggy

Yes 30percent that assumption is racist and classist but it’s also insulting. Are people suggesting that middle class white women shouldn’t have any say? That all their opinions are wrong? That they should shut up? I see a role for all women. Inclusive doesn’t mean that any one group should be rubbished and ignored.

Feminism does have boundaries though. An opinion is not feminist just because it comes from a woman. The woman who campaigned against votes for women would not be considered a part of feminism. Feminism may enable you to make your own unfeminist choices but it will not support you to impose them on other women.

So how do you define what is feminist then? It can only be a particular political view of women, and also society more generally.

Equivalent to an organisation about racial equality with a particular political bent, that only includes the views of a smallish proportion of non-white people.

I think that there is areal disparity around this that is kind of an elephant in the room.

What do you think feminism is SmokedDuck? Do you consider yourself to be a feminist?

I thought feminism was more a viewpoint -that women are as human as men- than an organisation or movement? Like anti racism, which organisations like BLM are aspects of?